Remind me why *** Someone*** would want an unfinished 80% Glock knock off...

[dgludwig]

And to think, before 1968, almost anyone could buy almost any firearm through the mail with very little background information needed to "legitimize" the sale. Also, it wasn't necessary to serialize firearms numerically. Thankfully, LBJ and his leftist confederates passed the 1968 Gun Control Act so that in the subsequent decades the crime rate involving firearms in America would plummet. If you don't believe it didn't, compare the U.S. Justice Department statistics under the auspices of the FBI from between 1968 and today. See, gun control works!
The government controls the law-abiding citizen's legal right to possess and own firearms but doesn't (and can't) control criminals from accessing guns illegally. When will we ever learn this lesson and basic truth?

 

[Sharkbite]

Ive never built out a 80% anything. But thats only because i have all the Glocks and AR’s that i want.

That being said, ive toyed with the idea, just because i can and like to tinker with gun projects. By the time i got the slide, barrel and internals i wanted, it would most certainly cost more then any off the shelf Glock. So, its not a cost saving issue, its a pride of building/ownership.

I think the idea of a “off the books” pistol is ridiculous. By the time the Gov tracks pistols thru 4473’s....we will have a full blown war in the streets.

 

[TunnelRat]

The pertinent laws as written, were for a different era, different society and technology.

A number of the pro gun control arguments are based in this exact logic. That the Second Amendment couldn't possibly have predicted the existence of semiautomatic handguns and rifles and that those firearms are not and should not be covered by the Second Amendment.

In the past, if it wasn't a half completed black powder rifle or pistol kit, making your own gun (a reliable functional weapon, not a crude Zip gun), required skill, knowledge, a garage full of tools and equipment and LOTS of time and patience. This ruled out most idiots and prohibited people.

It's okay if people have guns as long as they're not idiots by your personal estimation?

Times have changed. These complete kits make it VERY easy and quick to get a gun,

They don't really. You still need to finish the lower and then acquire and assemble the other parts. Is it as difficult as constructing a firearm from a forging? No. Is it what I would call very easy and quick? Not particularly, no moreso than breaking into a home or even less a car.

Why does this bother me? It's the morons I see on our streets, in our jails and on TV at night; the nutjobs, MS13, Antifa, political and religious extremists, Domestic abusers, etc., committing heinous crimes, rioting in the streets, commiting arson, assault, murder, demanding the Police be defunded, etc., the prohibited persons who would otherwise be DENIED AND FLAGGED during an FFL background check. THOSE are the people I don't want having the ability to purchase 80% AR and Glock kits online, with only a credit card (no background check!!!)... with a simple click and buy. As easy as buying socks!?!? This isn't logical, or right.

And what percentage of the overall population is made up by MS13 and religious extremists? So far you haven't produced a single statistic showing the percentage of overall crime that is done with these 80% lowers. You linked an article that stated that yes they have been and can be used in crimes. I've also pointed out to you that the overwhelming majority of mass shooters purchased their firearms after going through a background check. So to what extent is this really a problem? Isn't that worth knowing?

1 hour, a dremel tool and Youtube video later ... now the aforementioned idiot is armed!!!??!

I think that's a bit of a simplification of the process, but let's take that for a minute. I can also find videos online showing how to make a crude firearm out of parts at a hardware store. Firearms have existed for hundreds of years. They're not particularly complicated technology. Vice News has run specials showing firearms made in backyards in the Philippines, and those are with steel frames. Now with the advent of 3D printers how do you stop people from printing a polymer frame?

Think about that for a moment. Do we really want to live in a society that allows this to continue, especially with some of the violent, feeble minded, entitlement seekers out there running around?? Turn on the news tonight. It's not just us good guys (tax paying, law abiding hobbyists), who can buy these kits. ANYONE can.

What do entitlement programs have to do with any of this, or paying taxes for that matter? So none of the mass shooters paid their taxes? The Las Vegas shooter was quite wealthy. Let's try to avoid stereotypes in this discussion.

I am mystified (), as to how some can pretend that this isn't an issue (developing or otherwise), but I guess we all have a right to our opinions.

I'm mystified on how people can be so concerned about a threat they can't quantify, yet here we are.

There are no doubt people that purchase 80% lowers because they like the notion of purchasing an unregistered firearm. What percentage of those people are criminals I do not know, but it is a reason and the OP asked why someone would purchase one of these. If we really want to dissect whether that should be allowed in the first place I feel like that's a topic for another sub-forum.

 

[TXAZ]

Interesting discussion.

Three options I’ve seen now:
Buy a finished handgun (Glock, 1911, etc)
Buy an 80%er and finish it yourself.
Build your own from scratch.

I’m to the point I expect the best product is from the entity that make 1000 of the same models per day)

 

[TunnelRat]

I’m to the point I expect the best product is from the entity that make 1000 of the same models per day)

While I would agree, keep in mind that the "firearm" in this case is a molded piece of polymer. The parts that have to contain the pressure of expanding gases, that have to perform the recoil operated functions, that have to ignite the cartridge and then reset, can be purchased from companies whose sole purpose is the creation of those (I do acknowledge the role a frame plays in a firearm functioning and I'm not trying to sell that short). For Glocks there have been companies making slides, barrels, replacement internal parts, etc. for many years. You could even, if you were so inclined, purchase all Glock parts with the exception of the frame.

At this point I have a POF P19 frame (serialized) into which I've put all Glock components and a Shadow Systems MR920 that is essentially a complete aftermarket Glock as it comes with all parts installed and is serialized. These two pistols have been as reliable at this point as the dozen or more Glocks I have owned. To be fair I do wonder how they will be thousands of rounds down the line, but my guess is the frame won't be the issue.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I am mystified (), as to how some can pretend that this isn't an issue (developing or otherwise), but I guess we all have a right to our opinions.

I'm equally mystified as to how you can claim that it IS an issue. As someone else already commented, you haven't provided any statistics to support your contention that it is an issue. How many crimes can you cite that were committed by people using home-built firearms that began as 80% receivers -- rifles or handguns?

One incident is an anecdote, it is not evidence of a prevailing issue.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

While I would agree, keep in mind that the "firearm" in this case is a molded piece of polymer.

Not necessarily. People were selling alloy 80% AR-15 lowers long before the polymer lowers and mold-your-own kits became available. And 80% 1911 receivers have been available in both steel and aluminum alloy for decades.

 

[TunnelRat]

Not necessarily. People were selling alloy 80% AR-15 lowers long before the polymer lowers and mold-your-own kits became available. And 80% 1911 receivers have been available in both steel and aluminum alloy for decades.

The OP's original question was about 80% Glock polymer kits, hence why I said polymer. You are right that 80% kits exist for other options.

 

[TXAZ]

Understood Tunnelrat.
Was thinking more of the Pakistani gunmaker in a Rawalpindi bazaar I saw making a 1911 knockoff starting with only barstock, with the result a nice 1911 for $75 in 2 days.

 

[TunnelRat]

Was thinking more of the Pakistani gunmaker in a Rawalpindi bazaar I saw making a 1911 knockoff starting with only barstock, with the result a nice 1911 for $75 in 2 days.

I've seen videos of that on Vice News, pretty crazy. I'd be curious how well they hold up.

I think it's worth pointing out though that what you have at your disposal as a consumer in the US market is pretty incredible really. There are quite a few outfits with CNC machines and access to high quality steel producing seemingly very good products. There are also outfits producing seemingly not as good products. With the internet it's a bit easier to find reviews, but it's true there's an element in rolling the dice in this. If you're not able to troubleshoot any issues you might have after assembling the firearm you could be in for some pretty big headaches (which is in part why I have said I wouldn't call it overly easy).

 

[shurshot]

TunnelRat, you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree, these kits ARE an emerging issue.
Not Vice News, but another media source interviewed the ATF in California...

"Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these 'ghost guns'," said Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division. "What's changed is technology. The technology makes it easy for someone to make one of these, even to mass produce these."
h[I][B][/B][/I]ttps://abc7.com/ghost-guns-california-gun-laws-kits/5893043/

Although this is Giffords, its probably no more slanted than Vice... https://giffords.org/blog/2020/05/ghost-guns-are-specifically-designed-for-criminals-blog/

"I'm equally mystified as to how you can claim that it IS an issue. As someone else already commented, you haven't provided any statistics to support your contention that it is an issue."(AB)
???

 

[Aguila Blanca]

TunnelRat... not Vice News, but another media source...

"Forty-one percent, so almost half our cases we're coming across are these 'ghost guns'," said Carlos A. Canino, the Special Agent in charge of the ATF Los Angeles Field Division. "What's changed is technology. The technology makes it easy for someone to make one of these, even to mass produce these."
https://abc7.com/ghost-guns-californ...-kits/5893043/

First, the article only talks about southern California -- one office of the BATFE. Second, he's not necessarily talking about guns used in crimes, but about guns recovered from people who have been arrested.

 

[shurshot]

"First, the article only talks about southern California -- one office of the BATFE. Second, he's not necessarily talking about guns used in crimes, but about guns recovered from people who have been arrested."(AB)

Exactly!!!! Guns that have been recovered from people who have been arrested... CRIMINALS. Criminals carrying ghost guns!!! Isn't that in itself a crime AB? YES, Thank you!! They didn't buy them through a licensed dealer or go through a background check and were arrested for other crimes!! Thanks for making my point.

Here is an NBC article depicting ghost guns used by a criminal to kill a police officer. I'm sure some of you may remember this since you state you follow this ghost gun topic; https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-...lifornia-cop-used-homemade-ghost-gun-n1042811

"Today more than 40% of crime guns recovered by ATF agents in California are ghost guns."(Giffords/ATF).

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? So are we to ignore California ATF statistics? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many people must die (like the aforementioned Police Officer), in order to compile statistics that are acceptable to you??

As I previously stated, would it be that inconvenient to go through an FFL dealer and background check in order to buy one of these 80% kits? If it helps keep these scumbags from getting guns, wouldn't it be worth it?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many more people must die in order to compile statistics that are acceptable??

A prohibited person possessing a firearm is a crime, of course -- but it's essentially a paper or victimless crime. I'm not in the least impressed by statistics of how many prohibited persons have been found in possession of ghost guns (and I'm especially not impressed when the 40% statistic cited comes from the Giffords Gun Grab Group). I would be much more interested in statistics showing -- nationwide -- how often ghost guns are actually used in crimes that have victims -- shootings, murders, and armed robberies.

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many more people must die in order to compile statistics that are acceptable??

How many states? There are 50 states in the United States, so how about 50 states?

How many "more" people must die? How many people have died -- in crimes involving ghost guns. So far you have come up with two. That's hardly evidence of an overwhelming problem that can only be solved by imposing yet another restriction or lawful citizens engaging in a (so far) lawful activity.

As I previously stated, would it be that inconvenient to go through an FFL dealer and background check in order to buy one of these 80% kits? If it helps keep these scumbags from getting guns, wouldn't it be worth it?

Yes, to me it would be that inconvenient (aside from adding 50 bucks to the cost, to pay for the transfer fee). Would it be worth it? My answer is "No." Not until I am convinced it's a real problem, and I'm a long way from seeing that so far.

 

[shurshot]

"A prohibited person possessing a firearm is a crime, of course -- but it's essentially a paper or victimless crime."(AB)

True... until there is a victim. Prohibited persons carrying guns???... HMmmm... yep, probably well intentioned individuals on their way to volunteer at the local community outreach center or to do charity work at the local orphanage.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Ah ... I notice that you edited your post either while I was writing, or after I posted my response. Your edited post included this:

AB and TunnelRat, do you STILL think these are not being misused because there are not widespread "statistics" ??? So are we to ignore California ATF statistics? What is acceptable? Stats from 3 states, 10... how many?How many people must die (like the aforementioned Police Officer), in order to compile statistics that are acceptable to you??

Yes, we are to ignore California statistics -- unless they happen to be within a couple of percentage points of national statistics. Otherwise, what you are calling for is allowing one state to dictate what applies to the entire country. And that's exactly what our form of federal government was set up to avoid.

And that 40% number from Giffords? It's not really 40% of California crime guns. If you click the link within the link, it goes back to the same guy in the Los Angeles office of the BATFE, citing numbers for his area of operations.

I don't want my life to be controlled by what happens in Los Angeles, and what Californians think is best for me. Unrelated to firearms, I have professional experience of the way California's "solutions" to problems don't work.

 

[shurshot]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...a-9e47-59804be1dcfb_story.html?outputType=amp

3 more... not in California.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Shurshot- Why do you care that other people make "ghost guns/" They are entirely legal to make.
"Ghost guns" are just the latest thing the gun grabbers are after. "Saturday night specials," "assault rifles," "bump stocks," "high capacity magazines," etc. Face it- these people don't like ANY guns.

 

[shurshot]

Did you read all the previous posts Bill?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Shurshot, have you read the Second Amendment? Where does the Second Amendment say anything about serial numbers?

Ten or fifteen years ago it was posited that there were more than 20,000 (that's twenty THOUSAND) gun laws in the United States. 20,000 gun laws haven't prevented bad people from doing bad things, so what makes you think that one more law will change that? And how many more anti-gun laws have been added to that 20,000 in the last decade or so?

Requiring people to buy 80% receivers through FFLs won't make any difference at all. The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership, and the bad guys will continue to get their guns on street corners late at night.

Here's a source of [more or less] unvarnished statistics -- the FBI:
https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-crime-statistics

In 2019, there were an estimated 1,203,808 violent crimes in the United States. How many were committed with ghost guns?

There were 13,927 murders in the United States in 2019. How many were committed with ghost guns?

With that, I doubt anything I have to say is going to change your mind, and I know that nothing you have to say is going to change my opposition to anti-"ghost gun" laws, so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.