Remind me why *** Someone*** would want an unfinished 80% Glock knock off...

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TunnelRat

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Yes that link does work, thank you.

I read through as best as I can in my current location. I don’t see breakdowns of what percentages of crimes involving a gun are done with “ghost guns”. I did see that “ghost guns” have shown up in crimes in 38 states. How many total relative to all gun crimes in those states though?

As for the mass shooting example in the article, the majority of mass shooters passed background checks:
https://apnews.com/article/6fa458941f684468a24a992285777d05

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html

In the mass shooting example in the article the shooter was a minor who had taken the firearm from his father. Now the father was prohibited from owning firearms, so certainly there’s an argument that had “ghost guns” been illegal the shooting wouldn’t have happened. To me the bigger story is a minor who took a firearm from a parent and used it to commit a mass shooting, as has tragically been the case in a number of shootings. To me this says more about the need to secure firearms than “ghost guns” in particular.

Later in the article are interviews about why people are purchasing these. The gun shop owner says they’re hobbyists, the LA Sheriff says that’s hogwash. Is that proof either way?

I can’t and don’t deny “ghost guns” have and will be used by criminals, just as firearms in general are. Again my question is the scale of the problem, which doesn’t seem well documented.


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shurshot

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I don't doubt the gunshop owner. He likely knows and or screens his customers. But keep in mind, the majority of these 80% kits are NOT sold out of gunshops face to face... but online. ALL that is required is a credit card and a shipping address / PO Box. Click and buy! Like buying socks on Amazon... it's that easy. :eek: See the issue?
 
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TunnelRat

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All that’s required for purchasing in person is the same if we’re talking an 80% lower. Whether online or in person it’s the same requirements as far as I know.

Your argument seems to be that this can be exploited. I’ve never argued that it can’t be. My question is the scale of the problem as it’s materializing currently, not just the potential.


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Aguila Blanca

Staff
shurshot said:
If you take exception to my use of the word "Droves"...? Ok, fine. I'm not going to get into a link / info contest because you are not up to date on the topic or interested in researching the matter yourself. If you want to buy a ghost gun, go for it. Just don't be surprised if it is deemed illegal in the future. Remember, they want ALL guns confiscated, one law at a time. Banning these is at the top of their Agenda.
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I am up to date on this, and I try to follow it because I am interested. And I do not accept that criminals are buying 80% receivers and kits "in droves" and building them out to use in crimes. They don't need to -- they just steal guns, or buy them on inner city street corners late at night from other people who stole them. One incident is not a statistic -- it's an anecdote.

Yes, the anti-gun forces have 80% receivers in their sights, and yes several states have already enacted so-called "ghost gun" laws. But the article said it was illegal for that school shooter to buy one because he was under-age, and I don't know if that's a valid statement. I don't know all of California's gun laws, but an 80% receiver isn't a firearm, so it's not illegal for a minor to purchase a block of metal (unless California has a "ghost gun" law that somehow defines what constitutes an 80% receiver AND puts an age limit on who can buy one). The rest of the parts to build out a firearm are non-regulated parts (again, unless California has laws that address gun parts), so it probably wouldn't have been illegal for a minor to purchase the parts, either.

However, it may be illegal in California for a minor to possess a finished firearm. So then the crime would not be buying either the 80% receiver or the rest of the parts, but the act of finishing the receiver and assembling it into a functional firearm. But the shooter may not have built it. If not, then the crime would have been his buying it from someone, and someone selling it to him. And that would be equally illegal if it were a factory firearm with a serial number.

Robbers and gang bangers are not using "ghost guns" in any significant number of crimes. The reason the anti-gun types are wetting their pants over "ghost guns" is simply that they can't stand the notion that people can legally own firearms that the government doesn't know about and have a paper trail on.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
stinkeypete said:
I am very sure that selling your finished receiver is a huge felony. Giving it away might be a problem and personally I would scrap any receiver I made before risking any violation.
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Under federal law, you would be wrong. You would also be wrong (I think) in most states.

There is no [federal] law that makes it illegal to sell a firearm that never had a serial number. There are federal and state laws that make it illegal to alter, deface, or remove a serial number from a firearm. The problem is that most cops don't understand the law, so they would probably treat any firearm that doesn't have a serial number as falling under that law and arrest the owner. But the charge wouldn't stick, because it's not illegal to possess a firearm that never had a serial number.

It's also not illegal to sell a firearm that has no serial number. Antiques that never had serial numbers are bought and sold -- legally. But probably most FFLs would decline to transfer a modern AR or Glock built from an 80% receiver "just to be safe." Such guns could be legally sold in private, face-to-face transactions except in those states that require all transfers to go through an FFL.

There is nothing stopping the maker of an 80% "ghost gun" from stamping a serial number on it. Just make one up -- 12345, for example -- and stamp it on using a set of number dies from Harbor Freight, or an electric engraving tool. You don't have to report the serial number you put on your gun to anyone (again, unless your state has a ghost gun law), but now the gun can be sold and bought through an FFL.
 
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TunnelRat

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shurshot

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"And I do not accept that criminals are buying 80% receivers and kits "in droves" and building them out to use in crimes." (AB) 

Well, I guess it's a non issue then. :rolleyes: (Yes, I'm being sarcastic).

Normal, law abiding citizens I have ZERO problem with buying & making a gun from a 80% kit. The pertinent laws as written, were for a different era, different society and technology. No cell phones or internet back then when the law was written, nor were 80% complete kits with jigs and tools for semiautomatic weapons available at the touch of a "BUY NOW" screen.

In the past, if it wasn't a half completed black powder rifle or pistol kit, making your own gun (a reliable functional weapon, not a crude Zip gun), required skill, knowledge, a garage full of tools and equipment and LOTS of time and patience. This ruled out most idiots and prohibited people.

Times have changed. These complete kits make it VERY easy and quick to get a gun, not to mention 100% under the radar if one cannot otherwise legally purchase one. Would it be that inconvenient for law abiding citizens to buy the kit through an FFL dealer and go through a background check?

Why does this bother me? It's the morons I see on our streets, in our jails and on TV at night; the nutjobs, MS13, Antifa, political and religious extremists, Domestic abusers, etc., committing heinous crimes, rioting in the streets, commiting arson, assault, murder, demanding the Police be defunded, etc., the prohibited persons who would otherwise be DENIED AND FLAGGED during an FFL background check. THOSE are the people I don't want having the ability to purchase 80% AR and Glock kits online, with only a credit card (no background check!!!)... with a simple click and buy. As easy as buying socks!?!? This isn't logical, or right.

1 hour, a dremel tool and Youtube video later ... now the aforementioned idiot is armed!!!??! :eek:

Think about that for a moment. Do we really want to live in a society that allows this to continue, especially with some of the violent, feeble minded, entitlement seekers out there running around?? Turn on the news tonight. It's not just us good guys (tax paying, law abiding hobbyists), who can buy these kits. ANYONE can. :eek:

I am mystified (;)), as to how some can pretend that this isn't an issue (developing or otherwise), but I guess we all have a right to our opinions. :confused:
 
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Forte S+W

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Surprisingly, a lot of folks are really into Polymer 80% Lowers. Most seem to like them simply because they allow for greater customization of a firearm, and given the modular nature of most modern pistols, using one can be as easily as popping out the fire control group on one firearm, then inserting it into the Polymer 80% Lower.

I know that these are especially popular with Glock pistols since many folks dislike the grip angle and ergonomics of Glock grips.

Personally, I'm surprised that nobody has made any Aluminum 80% Lowers or even Stainless Steel 80% Lowers for all the folks who dislike polymer frames but like the reliability/versatility of more modern polymer-framed pistols. I think that they would be a big hit with the "I ain't usin' no newfangled tupperware gunz" crowd.
 
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TunnelRat

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Forte S+W said:
Personally, I'm surprised that nobody has made any Aluminum 80% Lowers or even Stainless Steel 80% Lowers for all the folks who dislike polymer frames but like the reliability/versatility of more modern polymer-framed pistols. I think that they would be a big hit with the "I ain't usin' no newfangled tupperware gunz" crowd.
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Wasn’t there a company at Shot Show that had allow framed Glock lowers? I don’t think they were 80% though.


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T. O'Heir

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There's a global pandemic going on. A guy needs stuff to do to keep him busy. Kind of like the cheap shelving unit I bought and turned into a book shelf. snicker.
 
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TUNNUG

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I have several old.22s that don't have serial numbers, I may be wrong but I think it was the late '60s when it became a requirement.
 
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shurshot

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True, but you didn't manufacture those .22's, correct? I believe it's when one manufacturers and then sells an unnumbered firearm that the legal issues arise, if not at individual State level, at Federal.
 
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stinkeypete

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"According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF), an individual can sell or transfer a firearm to another person without record keeping as long as both individuals reside in the same state and the recipient is not someone who falls within the categories of prohibited persons (such as a convicted felon). There may be state or local regulations that otherwise impact the transaction, but as far as federal law is concerned, it is not necessary for the seller to be licensed, nor is the seller required to perform a background check of the buyer. There is no federal regulation that precludes a transaction involving a homemade firearm from being sold or transferred in a similar manner, as long as such a sale or transfer was not the original intent of the firearm’s maker."
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.c...ll-or-give-my-homemade-gun-another-person.htm

Before doing it, I would talk to a real lawyer though.

"The Gun Maker's Original Intent

The key in determining whether a homemade gun can be legally sold or transferred rests with knowing the intent of the maker when the gun was first created. Relevant factors in determining the transferor’s intent may include: the length of time between the creation of the firearm and its transfer; the specific reason for the sale or transfer; and whether the maker of the firearm frequently sells or transfers homemade firearms. For example, a time lapse between creation and sale of many years, a reason for sale that has no sinister overtones, and a transfer that is one-in-a-lifetime for the transferor, would indicate an original intent to keep the gun. By contrast, quickly transferring a gun right after its creation, to someone who could not legally possess a firearm, by someone who regularly transfers such guns, would indicate a lack of intent to keep the gun."

I have several firearms that are old enough to not have serial numbers... and I learned something today!
 
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JohnKSa

Administrator
If someone without the proper federal licensing makes a gun with the intent to sell it, that is a felony. I believe this includes making a gun with the intent of giving it to someone as a gift.

If a person makes a (non-NFA) gun for themselves and then later decides to sell it or give it away, that's perfectly legal. For obvious reasons, it could be legally problematic if a person does this frequently or on a regular basis.

If a person makes a firearm for their own use, there is no requirement to put a serial number on it. However, if you do put a serial number on it, once it's on there, altering or removing it is probably a federal felony. You are the manufacturer and federal law prohibits altering or removing a manufacturer's serial number.

Some people recommend putting a serial number on a homemade gun before you sell it, but I can't find anything that mandates such an action.

Keep in mind that state laws may be different and could be more restrictive.
 
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HisSoldier

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Just buy the real thing
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At least AS real as the weapons the revolutionary soldiers used to buy us our freedom (Which had no serial numbers BTW). A cursory reading of the Bill of Rights convinced me long ago that EVERY law since 1789 that limited law abiding citizens from owning guns is unconstitutional. No mention of "serial numbers" either. from your easy acceptance of such unconstitutional infringement laws I expect you will be fine with confiscation.
 
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HisSoldier

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If someone without the proper federal licensing makes a gun with the intent to sell it, that is a felony.
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"Intent" being proven using a mind reader? I assume you mean witnessed statements of intent.
Just for the record I feel that the right to make and carry and use our own firearms (And ammo) is consistent with the Constitution.
 
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TunnelRat

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HisSoldier said:
"Intent" being proven using a mind reader? I assume you mean witnessed statements of intent.
Just for the record I feel that the right to make and carry and use our own firearms (and ammunition is consistent with the Constitution.
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He’s quoting you the law. If you don’t like the law then lobby to change it.


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shurshot

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"No mention of "serial numbers" either. from your easy acceptance of such unconstitutional infringement laws I expect you will be fine with confiscation." (HIS SOLDIER).

Seriously????
 
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JohnKSa

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"Intent" being proven using a mind reader? I assume you mean witnessed statements of intent.
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That's just what the law says. If you are making with the intent to sell it's illegal without the proper licensing.

Let's not pretend that this is a bizarre concept. Intent is quite often an important legal factor.

I'm not claiming that I can divine a person's intent or that it's easy to do, just pointing out what the law says.

I'm also not claiming that the law is Constitutional, that it's easily enforceable, that it's just, moral or that I advocate it. Just providing information.
 
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