Reloading measurements

[Wag]

You're moving from the world of simply loading ammo to the world of fine-tuning ammo.

When I was fine-tuning, I continually learned that there was just one more variable I needed to control. And when one problem was solved, another three would arise that made it clear that there was more to do.

And I enjoyed all of it!

Made some pretty hyper-accurate ammo, too.

I don't do that any more. The last several batches of ammo I made were just plinking ammo and while they're plenty good, they are not what you'd call perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I will say, that the biggest factor I ever had to deal with was cleaning my equipment. When I was loading lead bullets, the lube would start to come off in my seating die and I couldn't get consistent COL to save my life.

--Wag--

 

[Benchguy]

You're moving from the world of simply loading ammo to the world of fine-tuning ammo.

When I was fine-tuning, I continually learned that there was just one more variable I needed to control. And when one problem was solved, another three would arise that made it clear that there was more to do.

And I enjoyed all of it!

Made some pretty hyper-accurate ammo, too.

I don't do that any more. The last several batches of ammo I made were just plinking ammo and while they're plenty good, they are not what you'd call perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I will say, that the biggest factor I ever had to deal with was cleaning my equipment. When I was loading lead bullets, the lube would start to come off in my seating die and I couldn't get consistent COL to save my life.

--Wag--

Coincidentally, I have started to add a second tumbling to the brass to keep the lube out of my seating die. After reading other threads on ruining your die by running dirty brass through it I made the decision to keep it as clean as possible. I’m going to start another thread on annealing brass shortly. Having just gotten to this point, I have collected a decent amount of brass accumulated that has factory annealing but I believe I need to continue with the brass I’m firing.

 

[old roper]

Here is something to read.

https://bergerbullets.com/shoot-better/shooting-knowledge/measuring-coal-and-cbto/

 

[MarkCO]

This isn’t just a rabbit hole you’re starting down, it’s a bottomless pit of despair.

It's not really that bad. What is difficult is what one person says matters, really might not (at all or for you) and that what another says does not matter might really matter a lot. I've been reloading for a bit as well, and I am over 1.1M rounds hand-loaded now. I load bulk pistol anf AR ammo different from my Revolvers, hunting loads and match grade loads. I chrono a LOT and 5 shot groups at a minimum.

Mitigation (I did not say elimination) of variables is a goal, and the brass, bullets and powders we get do have variation, as well as the chambers. Some cartridges need some things others don't. The Creedmoors and PRCs cases are less finicky than say 7mm Mag. Barrels need to settle (when new and deep cleaned) but most people (for acceptable precision) clean them too much. And, a great load in one rifle is almost always going to be at least a good load in another...it's not voodoo, but you do need to figure out what each system likes. Optics and the shooter are big parts of the equation. Cheap scopes, parallax, poor fundamentals etc. make folks question their ammo when that is not the problem.

Each case depends on what you want to do with the rifle, how accurate you want to be, how meticulous you are with the other aspects of load development, and how much you shoot.

With precision bottle-neck rifle cartridges, much of what is "still" in vogue and done has been, in the last 15 years or so been abandoned as "trivial" or actually detrimental by the folks at the front of the class.

What is phenomenally interesting is that the men from the Houston Warehouse really gave us some good info to launch the next gen of rifle cartridge loading and barrel development.

"Chasing the lands" used to be a thing, and it is not anymore (if you learn what is best and what is not). Also (and there is a HUGE industry built around it) spending 1000s of dollars on a Prometheus, neck turning, etc. don't matter much if you do the other things right.

Redding Competition Shell Holders, Satterlee 1.0 and Satterlee 2.0 are the tools that have moved me to a much better, and much more efficient space.

First, OAL should be started with the base (for flat based and at the start of the shank for boat tails) of the bullet at the neck-shoulder junction. Then we do the Satterlee 1.0 (10 shot ladder test). Take the middle fired case from the node and set up your dies, with the Redding Competition Shell holder, for 1 to 2 thousands shoulder bump. Then go to Satterlee 2.0 to fine tune the OAL.

IF you are real lucky, the magazine will be compatible and your bullet will be at least 50 thousandths off the lands and you will be done with SDs under 5, extended barrel life and no chasing the lands.

That might be a little much for hunting rounds, great for precision rifle rounds and a little light for benchrest.

 

[Benchguy]

I need to retire so I’ve got time to watch and read! ?????? Seriously, thank you for all the information, all of you. I don’t think the “rabbit hole” is far off, but it’s just a time sink. I’m having to google a bunch of things to follow advice so I can put the words to lessons. I honestly could be satisfied with the recipe I have but there’s always this idea that it can be better. You all know that. ?????? MarCO mentioned optics and with my current rifle I am running the 1-6x32 Vortex Strike Eagle. Moving up to better magnification would pull my shots closer, I am sure. But if I’m hunting in a timber, close range will be the norm and it’s what I want out of the rifle. Reloading for it is relatively cheap and the lessons are important. I also own a REM 700 in 22-250 that has the potential to be a more accurate rifle. These lessons will be used for it down the road, as well as helping my son work into the skill with his 6.5 Creedmore.

Cheers for now!

 

[MarkCO]

I am running the 1-6x32 Vortex Strike Eagle. Moving up to better magnification would pull my shots closer, I am sure

It's not just magnification, but optical quality. Better quality means less distortion, less parallax, etc. I can "see" better with a quality 10x than a cheap 15x.

 

[Benchguy]

It's not just magnification, but optical quality. Better quality means less distortion, less parallax, etc. I can "see" better with a quality 10x than a cheap 15x.

Agreed. The reticle on it is a dot that is around 1/2” at 100 yards. Tough to zone in and see if you’re holding still.

 

[akinswi]

Agreed. The reticle on it is a dot that is around 1/2” at 100 yards. Tough to zone in and see if you’re holding still.

Unclenick, advised me to buy a redding competition seating die it reduced my variance in your measurement. when I sorted bullets by ogive the variance shrank even more. The best group I ever shot came from a batch that everything measured to 1thousandths or less. But that was with new cases and not reloaded cases.

When I ran a test using reloaded cases the difference in group size and my scores on SR-1 target was negligible. again this is at 100 and 200 yards at farther distance it could have made a difference.

My philosophy is if you see gains and you enjoy that type of thing by all means do it. I enjoy handloading and reloading as much as shooting.


again im shooting M1 garand and by no means its a bench rest rifle and im not a world class shooter

I remember seeing Videos by Erik Cortina and never once I saw him sort bullets.

 

[Nathan]

I would spend some time listening to the technical Hornady podcasts…..with a notepad and a pen! Lots of good stuff there that has kind of blown my mind.

Optics are important, but that is limited to their function of as an aiming device. That said, you do have to see the target. In benchrest, 30-50x at even 100yds is not uncommon. Optics must be good enough that the target is clear.

Back to measurements….i really need a composite group measurement tool next. That is where 4 x 5 shot target images can be calculated as one set. I read OnTarget TDS does this well. I spoke to Ballistic-X and that is coming out in their annual subscription soon.

Last, dive into statistics it help you see the gun/load capability and variation much more clearly.

 

[tangolima]

Optics are important, but that is limited to their function of as an aiming device. That said, you do have to see the target. In benchrest, 30-50x at even 100yds is not uncommon. Optics must be good enough that the target is clear.



Back to measurements….i really need a composite group measurement tool next. That is where 4 x 5 shot target images can be calculated as one set. I read OnTarget TDS does this well. I spoke to Ballistic-X and that is coming out in their annual subscription soon.



Last, dive into statistics it help you see the gun/load capability and variation much more clearly.

It is hard to visualize 30x-50x to see target at 100yd. A grain of rice? That sort of magnification is usually on a spotting scope with huge objective lens.

For recording poi, I print my own paper target with 1" grids. After each shot, I write down the poi x-y coordinates, together with other info, such as MV, POA x-y coordinates, W/E turret settings etc. The data are yo be imported to excel for number crunching.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Benchguy]

Been busy doing holiday stuff but I have some watching, listening, reading, testing etc… to do. I should probably point out that my handle on this forum may have some believing I only shoot off a bench. I did build a nice bench but that was to do testing and let people drop by to do the same. I’m a hunter at heart so shoot off bipods both setting and prone. Obviously there’ll be some off hand mixed in. Just didn’t want anyone to think I’m headed after competition shooting. I tried to be creative with the username and didn’t think about where that would lead anyone, if that’s the case. I love the interaction here so will try to keep conversations going. I just have a bunch of research to do. TTFN and Happy Holidays!

 

[akinswi]

Benchguy,

If it was me, sorting bullets is very time consuming, if you buy match grade bullets, sierra , berger etc you probably won’t notice a difference. your overall lengths wont vary much if you check maybe every 5 or so rds,to make sure they are close. I dont measure base to tip any more since most hp boatails are jagged, i only measure base to ogive its more accurate and consistent. Once you figure your sweet spot on your jump to lands then your good too go

example my rifle in 30-06, likes a base to ogive measurement of 3.017 to 3.018 but from base to tip its around 3.328 the next one could be 3.330 etc but the base to ogive usually varies 3.017 to 3.019 remember the tip doesn’t touch the lands or the groves so it doesn’t affect anything

You do need to get a quality seating die, redding in my opinion makes the best one it reduces runnout and there bullet seating stems are honed very well, and you can adjust your seating depth in 1 thousandths increments. its literally the best die I ever bought

As to trimming .If your trimming off the shoulder and your shoulder bumps aren’t consistent it will throw off your trim lengths. Try getting a cheap lee trimmer with the correct shank and trim a few this way you will see a difference in your consistency, and can adjust accordingly.

 

[Benchguy]

I’ve been thinking about trying the Berger bullets. I’ve got a couple hundred bullets to load (various weights, styles and manufacturers) most of which are match grade. I’ll look into the redding die.

Just curious, are you, akinswi, using a gas gun? I’m wondering about seating depth and the fact that I am limited by the magazine’s length capacity. Much above SAMMI length and I’m not able to load them into the mag. I’m not sure how far off the lands that leaves me and not sure it even matters since I’m living with that fact. Thoughts?

 

[akinswi]

Yes, im loading for an M1 garand so I have to Start at 3.340 which is max because of the enbloc clip . I work my way backwards from there. But remember if your max mag length is 3.340 you need too see what your corresponding base to ogive measurement is , it might be 3.022 or something like that

Watch a video by Erik Cortina Chasing the Lands. The principal is the same for a semiauto. You wont have to worry about where your Jam is, but use your max mag length and work down until you find your best node for barrel harmonics for your particular rifle.

You will be surprised how accurate an M1, M1A or AR15 or AR10 can shoot with properly tuned ammo.

 

[Benchguy]

Yes, im loading for an M1 garand so I have to Start at 3.340 which is max because of the enbloc clip . I work my way backwards from there. But remember if your max mag length is 3.340 you need too see what your corresponding base to ogive measurement is , it might be 3.022 or something like that

Watch a video by Erik Cortina Chasing the Lands. The principal is the same for a semiauto. You wont have to worry about where your Jam is, but use your max mag length and work down until you find your best node for barrel harmonics for your particular rifle.

You will be surprised how accurate an M1, M1A or AR15 or AR10 can shoot with properly tuned ammo.

I don’t have a chronograph, yet, and it seems like that’s a highly important component in this formula. I’ll check Eric’s video out. I recently subscribed to his channel and have enjoyed his content. I also watch Jonny’s Reloading Bench as he reloads for 5.56. He’s had pretty good success so know that great consistency is possible from gas guns.My personal consistency is also important. I’m slowly improving at that and feeling less like a drop of water in a hot skillet. Hahaha!

 

[Benchguy]

Yes, im loading for an M1 garand so I have to Start at 3.340 which is max because of the enbloc clip . I work my way backwards from there. But remember if your max mag length is 3.340 you need too see what your corresponding base to ogive measurement is , it might be 3.022 or something like that

Watch a video by Erik Cortina Chasing the Lands. The principal is the same for a semiauto. You wont have to worry about where your Jam is, but use your max mag length and work down until you find your best node for barrel harmonics for your particular rifle.

You will be surprised how accurate an M1, M1A or AR15 or AR10 can shoot with properly tuned ammo.

Just watched part two of “Chasing the Lands” I haven’t changed my seating depth, other than to make sure I’m able to load in the mag with the rounds I’m creating.

Today I stretched out to 300 yards with the load I’ve been working. No chronograph to test velocity nodes so no idea where I’m at. The local range has chronographs to use so I need to pick a day to go test there, if I don’t buy one sooner. Deer season is winding down and then my son and I will begin doing some coyote hunting. I may just not worry about the node right now if I can’t get to the range by 1/15. The POI was up and right far enough adjusted the scope after 5 rounds. I know some of you use MR instead of ES but for the sake of conversation the ES was around 4.6”. Removing the furthest shot from POA would drop the circle about .9”. It’s not satisfactory but for general purposes I will live with it for coyote hunting and load up enough to get me us well into the game.My efforts to reduce this drastically will continue along with questions. Thanks again for your comments and support! ;-)

 

[akinswi]

you dont need a chronograph, your groups will tell you. I have never had a need for a chronograph. Thats me tho, you may be different. My paticular rifle is goin to be a bit inconsistent due to my case fill, due to its an M1 and requires a paticular burn rate etc and the violent action can throw the powder forward away from primer.which can cause ES/SD variances.

But Barrel Harmonics are just as crucial. When I could cover a 5 shot group at 50yards with a dime. I was done. I did a test and seated them deeper and the group opened then I knew I had my seating depth. Also he explains as your throat erodes you shouldn’t chase the lands , only change if your groups realy start to open up

Make sure to write things down that work and didn’t work because you dont want to redo a recipe twice.

Keeping records is crucial to consistency.



and keep shooting working on your technique breathing, trigger control sight picture etc, thats more important anyways

 

[Benchguy]

More benches time ahead!

 

[MarkCO]

Anyone who is serious about making the best ammo is going to have a Chronograph. It is an essential tool to find nodes, see when the barrel needs to be cleaned, verify load recipes, etc.

 

[Benchguy]

Anyone who is serious about making the best ammo is going to have a Chronograph. It is an essential tool to find nodes, see when the barrel needs to be cleaned, verify load recipes, etc.

Probably a great investment for someone like myself. I’ll make my son split it with me! Hahaha!