Recommend a .223 rifle under $600.00

[FireMax]

nineinchnails, imp... thanks for the info about Del-Ton. I've checked them out. Interesting... the barrel is rifled at 1x9. So is the Kel Tec SU16. Am I correct that the 1x9 rifling will mean a decreased velocity of the round... also meaning that for long range, a heavy bullet will not be a wise choice (I read that somewhere in my internet travels today). And if so, is the ability to fire a heavy round a benefit or does it not matter. And lastly, what is the normal rifling for a typical AR?

Sorry for all of the questions, but like I said, this is a learning experience for me and I have a gun show I will be attending this coming Saturday so I am trying to get all of the info I can before I spend any money.

nineinchnails
Here's a link to an AR kit:
http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt103.htm

AR kits only require a stripped lower which has to be transfered through your local FFL dealer. No big deal.

I fouond a stripped lower here... http://dynamicarmament.com/items/ar...d-lower-essentialarmsstrippedlower-detail.htm . I found a few sites that sell them, that just happens to be the cheapest.

So, if I get the kit from Del-Ton, and a stripped lower... is that it? Is that the entire rifle? If so.... darn... it is cheaper than I thought.

 

[Ignition Override]

Those Saigas appear to be fine rifles. The trigger pull on the .223 and .308 seems to be the smoothest I've ever tried.

My Mini 14 has been quite reliable and my large plastic Promag has fed perfectly, despite the fact that the fit is not really tight and was only loaded up to 12 rounds a few times.

For the last several weeks, GunBroker has displayed four full pages of Mini 14s, or even several more.
For frequent shooting, the slight disadvantage of the (Wolf) .223 for me is its rising cost compared to lowest-cost (Wolf) 7.62x39 which has been quite stable for several months. It's always fired in the 14, compared with my fairly new Mini 30, in which about four Wolf rounds were fail-to-fire out of about 300+.
Living in a row of houses outside of town, a self-defense situation would never require my guns to be reliable past about 50 feet or 50 yards, hot-barrel or not. If we ever have a riot in town or other 'Road Warrior' problems and I decide to drive near the area, a mob could be a danger, but not a distant sniper like "Full Metal Jacket" or "Enemy At The Gates" etc. Don't own land.
Good used Mini 14 ('90), 'cherry' 30, 'real cherry' SKS and 'cherry' MN 44 (+ old faded Savage .22).
"Carbine Lifer".

FIREMAX: My buddy who is a sharpshooter on a military reserve rifle team knows his AR-15s and other rifles. I asked him last week while driving him home from work: "M."-if you were in a dusty/dirty situation where you could not clean your gun for hours, would you have an AR-15 or a Russian designed-rifle?
His frank response: "Probably an AK-47". That surprised me! Because many people have a defensive attitude about our US-made weapons. Later I read quotes from US Desert Storm veterans who claimed that their AR-15s were kept wrapped in plasticbags for a while.
Good luck with your decision.

 

[chris in va]

You're looking at about $500 to buy a Saiga 223 and convert it. The process is actually quite fun, and you can say you 'built' it. Pictures are off the Saiga-12.com site.

Before...

After...

 

[ISC]

... the barrel is rifled at 1x9. So is the Kel Tec SU16. Am I correct that the 1x9 rifling will mean a decreased velocity of the round... also meaning that for long range, a heavy bullet will not be a wise choice (I read that somewhere in my internet travels today). And if so, is the ability to fire a heavy round a benefit or does it not matter. And lastly, what is the normal rifling for a typical AR?

The twist rate will determine the length of the bullet that you van accurately shoot from a barrel. Longer bullets will be heavier. A 1:9 twist will stabilize anything less than a bullet in the 69 grain range or less. If you want to shoot exclusively heavier bullets for long range varmint shooting you should consider a faster twist rate, but it's pretty much a waste on an AR because the really long bullets result in cartridges with an overall length that prevents them from being loaded in a magazine.

Re cheap ARs:
If you get a entry level AR you sacrifice a couple features that will effect reliability and durability under extreme conditions. I think the bigger issue with unreliable ARs is people putting them together that don't know what they're doing. Occasionally out of spec parts from manufacturers that are new in the game make it through QC, but a knowledgable builder would recognize the parts aren't fitting right and toss it.

I'd take a cheap AR without a chrome bore before I'd take a custom mini 14, which won't have a chrome bore either. Alot of people will spend 2 or 3 times as much on a rifle that is .5% more reliable or durable. If I was spending someone else's money I'd consider that fair. Since I am buying my own weapons I don't. I do think that a chrome bore is important, and will spend the extra $30 for that feature, but snobs who trash an off brand AR manufacturere are like people that will only buy peterpan peanut butter or use super unleaded in their car. It's overkill.

 

[billindenver]

If you want to shoot exclusively heavier bullets for long range varmint shooting you should consider a faster twist rate, but it's pretty much a waste on an AR because the really long bullets result in cartridges with an overall length that prevents them from being loaded in a magazine.

I run 75's in my 1-8 barrel and they fit in my mag without problem. Rifle is a stag super varminter, 24" stainless, $850 new

75 hornady match
23.5 gr H335
WSR primer
winchester brass

 

[tulsamal]

Did you see the review Jeff just put up on the Del-Ton AR?

http://www.gunblast.com/Del-TonAR15.htm

There really is something to be said for a bolt action .223.

The Savage 25 is light and easy to carry around. It isn't expensive at all yet quite accurate. Leaves you money to get a good scope for it. Has the Accu-Trigger. Versatile.

http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-Model25.htm

Gregg

 

[NineInchNails]

I'm not very knowledgeable with regard to twist rates. There should be some decent info on this page:
http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/barrelFAQ.html

That link you posted looks like the lowest price I've seen (as far as I can recall). If my memory serves, typically they are around $100-$140 for a stripped lower. If you are real picky … it would appear that the lower you listed is more on the color grey side. Here’s an example of mismatched color. It’s not a big deal or anything, but I just thought I’d mention it.

The strange thing I have noticed is that the prices are not always the best at gun shows. There are some real bargains sometimes, but for the most part I save money buying online. If you know exactly what you are looking for and know the online or catalogue price ... you'll likely find that gun show prices are the same if not more. Don’t get me wrong, I love attending gun shows. I’ve spent too much money traveling to shows that have nothing and to find that I could have just stayed home and clicked “click here to buy”.

 

[NineInchNails]

Right now I'm looking at purchasing a Model 1 Sales pistol upper and a Spike's Tactical stripped pistol lower.

Personally I like flat tops, flip sights, and a quad rail. This gives you MANY options. Some prefer a carry handle ... no big deal to purchase a removable carry handle.

 

[FireMax]

If I do decide on an AR, then I will definitely get a flat top. If I have an accurate weapon like an AR it makes sense to use it to its ability, so I will scope it. But that is down the line just a bit.

I checked out the options at del-ton and it seems like the options I like will cost me about $700.00 for the kit + $100 for the lower. I know that I will want to customize it a bit down the line (butt stock, 4 rail hand guard, flash hider) and it is much cheaper to do it at del-ton when I buy the kit rather than to purchase the custom parts separately. If cough up the $800 or so up front, then it will save me, maybe close to $200.00. I can use that for ammo. The $800 takes me a couple of hundred over my budget, but like I said, it will save me money to break my budget a bit now rather than piece the upgrades together later.

I haven't fully decided, but I am strongly leaning toward the AR at this point. I am looking past the dependability question because I am a person who actually enjoys disassembling and maintaining my weapons, so I do not mind cleaning it often. Again, in regard to a SHTF scenario, I am getting two advantages with an AR --- the commonly available .223 round and parts which are common and mass produced.

I will have a few more questions about the options in the Del-ton kit a bit later when I have time to write them down.

Thanks again for everyone's help... I'm still watching this thread for more info so keep it coming.

 

[FireMax]

tulsamal
Did you see the review Jeff just put up on the Del-Ton AR?

http://www.gunblast.com/Del-TonAR15.htm

No, I had not seen it. I just got done reading it and it gives me confidence that the Del-ton kit will serve me well. From the article.....

The Del-Ton is a fine example of a good, reliable, and accurate AR-15 carbine. As you know, there are plenty of good AR rifles on the market, but one very good thing in favor of choosing the Del-Ton is the price. They are priced below any other AR of which I am aware. Usually, for a lower price, you have to give up something. With the Del-Ton, you give up nothing. You still get a high quality weapon, you just don’t have to pay as much for it.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Being an AR15 fan, I prefer them, but the $600 price cap is not high enough for one of decent quality.

That being said, Saiga's are a very good value. That is the route I would go with that budget.

 

[Jermtheory]

I am looking past the dependability question because I am a person who actually enjoys disassembling and maintaining my weapons, so I do not mind cleaning it often.

im telling you,this is overblown anyway.

i'll burry my LMT in the mud right now... $100 says i dig it out and it eats its 30 rounds like Rosie through a Twinkie.

...same with sand.

give me 3-5 seconds to prep after i dig it out and we'll make it $200.

 

[FireMax]

There are definitely a lot of different positions on this issue. My buddy who first got me interested in ARs is in the camp who believes a higher end AR is the only way to go. Yet, I meet guys with less expensive ARs and they claim they work fine too. I tend to believe that one gets what one pays for. No doubt that a higher end rifle might be better crafted. But does that mean that the less expensive ARs are crap? Probably not. I don't speak from experience, only what people tell me and it seems like there will always be differing opinions on this matter. It comes down to one's own preference and budget, I think. In that regard, a high-end AR ($1000+) is out of the question for me, which narrows down my choices.

 

[Sparky33]

I would look into building an ar-15 yourself. Buy a kit(its a complete rifle minus the receiver) and then get a stripped receiver transfered to an FFL, assemble everything and you are done. I'm about to start ordering parts for one myself. Its looking to be about $750 for me but shave off some bells and whistles and you would be in your $600 range.

On a side note get one chambering in 556 nato. With the .556 nato you should be able to shoot surplus .556 and reg. factory .223. I think a rifle chambered in .223 will not shoot .556 nato

I would not bet my life on this, it is based on some research I've done in preparation to building my ar, so please someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[imp]

If you go the AR route, definatly get one in 5.56mm. Most of them are, but double check with the mfg. You can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 with no trouble. I do not reccomend firing 5.56 out of a .223. It can be done, but the 5.56 is a higher pressure, and if I recall correctly, is just a little bit longer.

I just finished building my second AR. My first was built 6 years ago with a rock river arms lower and a Model 1 sales kit. Its just a plain-jane 20" rifle, but last time I put it on the bench, it kept 60 rounds in a 2" group at 100 yards. I have atleast 8K rounds through this rifle with zero malfunctions.

My second is a 16" flat-top from del-ton, built on CMMG lower. I just finished it 2 weeks ago, and I only have 300 rounds through it, but so far its perfect also.

Many people will trash talk the AR's reliability because they heard horror stories about the troops getting pounds of sand and mud in them. If you live in a sandy swamp and plan on never cleaning your weapon, the AK style weapons may fit the bill. The AR is a more precise piece of machinary, but for the small bit of reliablity in extreme circumstances that you lose with the AR, you gain a lot of improvements in accuracy, fit, finish, accessories, trigger, sights, and personal customization.

 

[FireMax]

I saw a show on the history channel that featured the AK47 and the M16. They showed slow motion photos of each weapon as it fires. The AK47 (and SKS) are built more loose than the M16 which tends to make the AK more forgiving. There was so much movement on the AK, you can understand why it is not more accurate than it is. The AR, on the other hand, barely moved (aside from recoil). It's tight tolerances improve its accuracy, but make it prone to failures from dirt, sand, etc.

 

[imp]

Thats pretty much the gist of it. Its like comparing a timex to a rolex. One will take a licking and keep on ticking, the other is accurate within .00001 nanoseconds...

 

[S832]

If the AR-15 was so horrible, it seems they wouldn't be issuing the same design to soldiers in Iraq.

It just seems wrong to say the AR-15 is going to break the minute it gets some dirt on it.

 

[ISC]

I have abused M16s in ways that would shock the nay sayers here. My ARs have been put through some dtrenuous conditions too. ARs will work under pretty bad conditions. I believe that it is more important to have high quality ammo than a high quality brand name.

Will they grind a cup full of sand into dry silicone lubricant? No

Will they function with a dirty bolt and thousands of rounds between cleaning? Absolutely.

 

[FireMax]

s832
If the AR-15 was so horrible, it seems they wouldn't be issuing the same design to soldiers in Iraq.

I'm not implying the AR is horrible, but because the military issues it does not mean it is the right weapon. The military brass who make these decisions are often influenced by politics, not what is best for the US soldier.