Recommend a .223 rifle under $600.00

FireMax

New member
I have decided that I would like to purchase a rifle calibered in .223. Usage? Preparedness... crap hits the fan scenario basically... I have got an SKS, an M44 Mosin and a 9mm Hi-Point. I would like to vary my rifle calibers in case ammo availability would ever be an issue. I will also be adding a .22 caliber to my personal collection, but I'll leave that for another thread. I want to concentrate on .223 right now.

I would like a nice AR15, but have decided I do not want to spend that kind of money. My budget is under $600.00-- less if possible so I can spend the difference on ammo. I don't need a .223 rifle as accurate as an AR15. I figure 100-200 yards accuracy will be fine.

I've been looking at the Keltec SU16 series of rifles. I can get one in my area for about $500.00. It takes AR15 mags which appeals to me. I've talked to a couple of people who own an SU16 and they speak well of them.

I'm open to suggestions for a .223 rifle under $600.00. Thanks.

keltechsu16.jpg
 

wdelack

New member
A quick browse of the on-line gun auction/classified sites revealed several Ruger Mini-14s that can be had for at/under your target price.
 

FireMax

New member
A quick browse of the on-line gun auction/classified sites revealed several Ruger Mini-14s that can be had for at/under your target price.
Thanks for the info wdelack. I know that Ruger has a good name and they are American made. Does the Mini-14 take AR15 mags?

you can put an ar together for under 600 dollars.

scotts_4x, when you say "put together", what exactly do you mean?
 

Spade Cooley

Moderator
It sounds to me like you have the short range combat rifle covered with the SKS. Why not do like the mand said and buy a Bolt Rifle for long range work, Cal 223.
 

44-40

New member
Mini's take their own mags, I own a scoped ranch rifle and like it alot, I've owned 3 or 4 AR's and still own one, they never shot any better than the mini, and I haven't had to send the mini in for repairs, I can't say that about the ar's. A bolt gun will cost less and shoot circles around both.My 2 cents
 

ISC

Moderator
Minis 14s do not take AR 15/M16 mags, and reliable hi cap mags for the mini are notoriously difficult to find and expensive. Minis also are generally only half as accurate as ARs. That's especially true if you don't wait for the barrel to cool between shots. On top of that, they aren't as adaptable as ARs and much less ergonomic and user servicable. They are cheaper and Ca legal though.

Another option if you're dead set against ARs is a Saiga, but high cap .223 mags aren't available AFAIK. They are reliable and less than a mini and also Ca legal.

Keltec makes a polymer .223 semi auto that is fairly inexpensive (about $450 used) but I suspect that their service life is pretty short. It does take AR mags though.

Or you can get a cheap entry level AR 15. Buy an assembled upper reciever from a place like model one sales and then order an assembled lower from Stag, Rockriver, DPMS, or double star ($350). Find an FFL that does cheap transfers ($20 or less is good). Order the lower($230) from the manufacturer directly and pay the transfer fee. You end up paying less for the transfer fee than taxes would be, and don't have to pay for the dealers markup. The nice thing about this option is that you can spread out the purchase by getting the halfs over a couple months and when you order the upper you can choose the features you like and they assemple it to your specifications. I got a mid length flat top with a chrome bore and 1:9 barrel and A2 flash fider. I ordered the carry handle seperately from Tapco ($50 less) and put my upper on a Rock River lower with a 6 position collapsable stock. It is exactly what I wanted and I'd stack it up against any $1200 AR even though mine was only about $650 total.

Or you could just het a Century AR for $575 plus transfer.

All of my ARs cost less than $650 and most of them were less than $600.

A $600 AR is better than an $800 mini 14.
 
Mini-14 take AR15 mags
As pointed out they take their own mags. There are some mags that are supposed to work in Mini-14, AR and .223 AKs, everyone I have discussed this indicates they don't work in any of the rifles. The mags are expensive for reliable ones. $50-60 for 20 round factory, PMI which are supposed to work just as well can be had for $40. Promag 20s can be bought for $10 with reportedly 1/2 working really well, 1/4 needing lips broken in to work well and 1/4 being worthy of crushing in a good press. Promag seems to be what most people choose. Deals occasionally pop up, but if you want a dozen or so mags you are going to spend a lot more than for an AR compatible rifle.
The above is all culled off of boards and speaking to people in person. I just bought mine and ordered an assortment of mags to try out.
I was purchasing for SHTF and I decided I would rather have a reliable rifle with 2-3 mags than one with problems and a dozen. I can buy more mags as the years go buy. I don't think it is going to hit the fan for at least a few more years. Gun is light, handles well, balanced well, and stainless barrel.
PMI stopped producing the mags in 1994, but still have the tooling etc. to restart production. I talked to the president of the company and he said he needs a 20,000 mag order to restart production. They were making more than that a month in 1994, but no retail or distributor wants in. That would solve the problem, and Ruger would have to drop their prices to compete. I even offered to place a huge order if I could get pricing, but no reply as yet. I figure a few gunshows and i could sell those.
 

billindenver

New member
I would suggest a saiga 223. My 7.62 version will peg the metal plates at 200 yards on every shot, easily minute of chest accuracy and dead reliable. Cost is half of a mini-14 too. The mini is a reliable rifle, though I consider the ones I have fired to be light duty guns. Thin barrel etc...not going to hold up to an AK's reliablity in my mind. Just my opinion but when considering a SHTF scenario, my mind falls to the most reliable, never have to clean it, shoot it underwater if you want to, rifle ever made....the AK. A civilian AK made in the same russian plant as the military version.....Saiga.

I love my AR too...but lets face it if you drop it in mud (like someone shoots back at you and you dive for cover)....it's a club until you clean it. If the zombies ever invade....I'll be the guy holding the AK once they are inside 300 yards. At 300 plus, the AR comes into it's own...and it should for the pricetag.
 

FireMax

New member
You guys are giving me a lot of info to research. I appreciate it. I'm completely open to the type of .223 rifle I will get. Semi-auto, bolt action, lever, etc. The three main requirements for me are....

1. Under $600
2. Durable construction (if I have to depend on it for my only rifle, I would want it to stand up to the test)
3. Easy to disassemble and maintain like an AK or SKS

As for accuracy, I feel that 200 yard accuracy and below will be sufficient. They guys I talk to who have been to Iraq tell me that most every battle happens at 100 yards or less (that's pretty darn'd close if you think about it)

So, durability and maintenance are the main features I believe I am seeking. I have an affinity for Russian weapons because of this. My buddy has told me to buy an AR15 for years, but I have resisted because I tend to lean toward dependability in real-world scenarios as more important than 400 yard accuracy. I am not saying that to offend you AR owners... I've shot my friends AR15... it's a hell of a weapon and I would be happy to have one. I'm just leaning toward the durability and maintenance end of the spectrum in this particular purchase.
 

Daryl Licht

New member
My main hangup about the Ruger Mini has always been availability of affordable magazines. I had one for a while, and it was a great gun. I've been hesitant to pick up another due to good mags being 40-50 bucks.

There are some AK's chambered for .223 out there for pretty cheap. All I know of these is what I've read on various boards, some say they're good, others not so good.

My son recently assembled an AR with a 20" stainless barrel and ambidextrious safety for <$550. May last one would have been under 600 had I gone with a stripped lower and a parts kit instead of buying the lower assembled. Good mags are available for $15 or less and spare parts are all over the place.

The Kel-Tec looks like a fun gun, and it takes AR magazines.
 

bclark1

New member
You're sick of hearing it, but I'd advise you to reconsider on the AR as well.

Mini-14s are nice, but I would personally fret the standard barrel - I would buy a target model (which are quite a bit more expensive), but the thin, unsupported barrel in the standard 14's has caused its fair share of negative rumors. If you plan to concern yourself with "real world" issues, that could certainly be one.

A lot of the M-16/AR-15s bad rep is residual from the days of the platform's infancy. I've had the pleasure of knowing a number of people in combat arms, and none of them have been able to give me stories of the fabled M-16 failures that you hear about on message boards all the time. Being a person who knows how to take care of this rifle, I will sadly admit I take foul care of my personal AR-15. It gets cleaned every couple range outings and is rarely lubricated sufficiently. It is a Rock River/DPMS mongrel that I put together on a budget. And the only issues I've had with it are operator error - specifically, my disdain for my marksmanship. The gun always does its thing.

Now having totally over-justified my position and lengthened this post unnecessarily :p I would just say it's a good place to start. If you can pick up a budget AR at a gun show or build one for your price range, it's a great option because you can upgrade at-will and as money permits. Yes, you can do that with the other rifles too, but I think the massively-produced and heavily adapted AR-15/M-16 A-x Mk-x Mod-x/M-4 will have superior modular options until another rifle replaces it in the Western world.
 

FireMax

New member
Yes, you can do that with the other rifles too, but I think the massively-produced and heavily adapted AR-15/M-16 A-x Mk-x Mod-x/M-4 will have superior modular options until another rifle replaces it in the Western world.

That is certainly a good point (massively produced). There would be good availability of spare parts for the AR such as magazines, etc. That is one of the things I like about the AK and SKS... parts easily found when you need them. I will take that into consideration.

So, what parts are in the AR exactly? In an SKS, for example, you have

1. Stock
2. Barrel assembly/action
3. Trigger assembly
4. Magazine
5. Piston/gastube
6. Operating rod
7. Front and rear sights
8. Bayonette (if equipped)
9. Muzzle brake/grenade launcher on some models
10. Bolt/bolt carrier
11. Receiver cover

What about the AR? Is it designed as simply as the SKS in that you can put them together easily? Would I need to have any gun smith skills to put one together (don't have much in that regard)?
 

Jermtheory

New member
A lot of the M-16/AR-15s bad rep is residual from the days of the platform's infancy.

NTM the fact that people dont want to spend the money on a quality AR and then they wonder why they have problems with the lowest cost crap they could get their hands on.

....not all AR's are created equal,despite what many would have you believe(although most i think are trying to convince themselves more than anything).

save your money and buy a high quality AR...it'll do everything you're asking and more.
 

bclark1

New member
I'm certainly not a gunsmith but I'm comfortable taking apart my AR - still looking forward to being corrected on any number of things below by the real experts here. ;)
Schematics are readily available, but they can almost make it look more complex than it is. In my limited experience, I don't consider the AR platform tool-heavy, with punches being the most common tool(s) necessary. If you want to "see," here's a pretty thorough thread on builds:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782
This likely influences its popularity - like the 1911, parts manufacturers know it's a solid, tinker-friendly, relatively inexpensive (compared to other Western service rifles) system.

You push in two takedown pins to separate the receivers (upper/lower). The lower is pretty simple - the trigger group doesn't need regular disassembly, but there's plenty of info out there that will be enough for most laypersons to do so if they please. You can also buy pre-built, drop-in trigger groups if you'd like something nice/aftermarket without the trouble. External controls aren't complicated or expensive to replace with oversize/ambidextrous/etc. parts. Removing the buffer tube and spring is just pushing down a spring-loaded retainer. Stocks require a wrench for removal, but again, it's nothing sophisticated. There's boatloads of these, cheap and expensive, the "coolest" ones in my opinion made by Magpul and CAA. Not much to the pistol grip either, and also lots of options.

Regarding the upper, a flat-top gives you a lot of options for accessorizing, although the marketplace is full of mounts and add-ons for a standard A2 upper as well. A2 irons and aftermarket flat-top sights aren't difficult to play with as long as you're not prone to losing small parts, or keep spares on hand knowing you're as clumsy as me and will drop them somewhere you can't reach. The the bolt carrier group and charging handle come right out once you take the rifle down. The bolt carrier and bolt are easy to disassemble and reassemble, although you would probably buy a whole new group if you were upgrading. Depressing the delta ring will get the handguards off, which you can replace with railed guards for accessories. Changing barrels gets into a little bit more effort, but it doesn't necessitate a gunsmith. You'd also need to do that if you want to free-float a rail or handguard system - however, for 200yd accuracy, that's probably not a concern. The gas system is pretty much hands-off - doesn't require much regular maintenance, and as long as your's is working alright from the start, you'd probably just keep what you have until you replace the upper.

Which is also what's nice - if you decide you want a tack-driver later on, but don't want to buy a whole new rifle, you can just pick up a new upper (or lower for use with a versatile upper). A well-built lower - or a not-so-well-built one if you're just concerned with it going bang at short range - accepts almost whatever upper you slap on it, including a number of uppers that have been designed for other calibers. There are also conversion kits for the existing upper. A lot of gun stores have parts on hand if you want to change out something, and many online gun sellers have a dozen makes, finishes and variants of every part available.

What'd I miss out of your topics - mags are easy and cheap, and haven't been finicky in my experience. I've gotten a handful of cheap magazines ($10 a pop) from various online sellers - used polymer, steel, etc. - no problems to speak of. Standard AR-15 function doesn't use an op rod, it's all gas. Pre-and-post ban uppers usually come with a bayonet lug, and you can get quad-mounts for the gas block if you want to forward-accessorize without full railed handguards. Flash hider is just screwed off, although some target barrels are not threaded. No receiver covers, but you do have the ejection port "door."

Anyway, hope that's at least a little helpful. And I don't mean it if I sound pushy - I'm not saying the Kel-Tec or other rifles wouldn't fit your bill - I just didn't think the AR should be "crossed off" the list if you're more into semi-autos than bolt guns in .223 Rem.
 

FireMax

New member
Anyway, hope that's at least a little helpful. And I don't mean it if I sound pushy - I'm not saying the Kel-Tec or other rifles wouldn't fit your bill - I just didn't think the AR should be "crossed off" the list if you're more into semi-autos than bolt guns in .223 Rem.

Thanks for the detailed info. It sounds like an AR is a "tinkering man's" type of gun. That's why I like Russian weapons... easy to disassemble... easy to upgrade (in many cases anyway). The main reason why I have not considered the AR was I felt it was cost prohibitive. In my area, it always seems like a decent AR at a gun show goes for around $900.00. It may be worth it, but to a man who works for his money, I cannot escape the fact that I can get two AK47's for that price or a few SKS, for example. But, more than one person is telling me that I can have an AR within my price range of $600.00, and that does interest me as I would like to have one. As you mentioned previously, the ARs are plentiful and so are their parts. I got to thinking about that, and it appeals to me. Plentiful parts and ammo is what attracted me to Russian weapons. Now that I am thinking of a .223 caliber weapon, and if I can get an AR in the range of $600.00, and considering that AR parts and ammo are plentiful, well, that would make sense.

I do wonder about the quality of a $600 AR. My buddy tells me the same thing Jermtheory mentioned... that there is a difference in quality among the various AR manufacturers and you get what you pay for. So, I must consider that also.

I'll take a look at the link you provided. I appreciate your detailed response. This is a real learning experience for me.
 

NineInchNails

New member
Here's a link to an AR kit:
http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt103.htm

AR kits only require a stripped lower which has to be transfered through your local FFL dealer. No big deal.

Honestly I know nothing about this company nor the product's quality. I noticed the price tag and thought I'd post it here.

A good weapon is not a mistake and neither is owning too much ammo while it's still available. It's hard to beat a good AR.

I wish you the best of luck.
 

imp

New member
Building an AR is a pretty simple affair. Even if you have never assembled anything, you should be able to do it in just a couple hours. It might cost a little more than $500, but you could build a standard rifle for less than $600.

Get a decent kit from Del-Ton, Model 1 sales, etc..and you will have a rifle far superior in every way to anything else for the money.
 
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