Project Savage .243AI is Finished!

[Duzell]

how are you with the thumb hole stock ?

i have the peppered on my mosin, its great for me, but my lefty friends find it very hard to use

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

"Velocity, like our paper dollar, is a depreciating asset.

Mass and efficient bullet shapes, like diamonds, are forever."

That's true.... but it's only got to last long enough to reach the target.

It's like the old saying "There's no replacement for displacement." and then the pictures of a turbo charger that said "Here's your replacement!"

how are you with the thumb hole stock ?

i have the peppered on my mosin, its great for me, but my lefty friends find it very hard to use

I like thumbhole stocks a lot. Just sitting in the stand or carrying, they're more comfortable. Steadier to shoot, helps mitigate recoil. I think they look cool too.

 

[taylorce1]

Torque action screws to a random value where the stock has resided in a 75 degree, conditioned room.

Then take it out into minus ten degree, very low humidity...

Or, one hundred degree, ninety percent humidity.

I am unconvinced there would not be dimensional changes affecting the torque values of those action screws.

And I believe that an argument suggesting that any bolt gun would not benefit from a proper pillar and receiver bedding job is unfounded.

I never said that "any bolt gun" wouldn't benefit from a pillar and bedding job, I just said that I felt pillars weren't necessary for this rifle. I can tell you that one day out isn't going to affect the rifle like you say. Other than a "laid up" synthetic stock a laminated wood stock is going to be far more stable than even the injection molded rifle stocks.


I know some people swear up and down that you have to have pillars, like "Ernie the Gunsmith". I'm in the camp that believes that they aren't necessary unless you are competing with the rifle. However even McMillan says that pillars aren't necessary with their gunstocks except the benchrest stocks.

McMillan Pillar Bedding Article
One last item on pillar bedding, I am often asked by customers who would like to bed their own stock but lack the confidence to try pillar bedding, “Do I need pillars?” Because of the construction techniques and materials we use in making our stocks, it is not necessary to use pillars. With the exception of benchrest stocks, which are always glued in and use a lighter fill in the action area than all of stocks, pillars are unnecessary. Tests have proven that the materials we use to fill the action area of our stocks have less than one percent compression at 100 lb psi. What that means is that there is no way you are going to be able to torque your guards screws tight enough to compress the material under the action. Why do we put them in every bedding job we do when installing our stocks? Because it’s state-of-the-art. It’s what has become the excepted way to do things. It’s not a fad. It is a valuable technique that is necessary when bedding stocks that use a different method of construction (which almost all other synthetic manufacturers do). It’s just that with ours, it is not really necessary

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well gentlemen, I did get to shoot her a little bit today.

I know it's only a .243 but, man, that Boyd's recoil pad is worthless. 25 rounds or so and it's starting to get uncomfortable.

I have to do a little checking because I was initially about 8 inches right at 50 yards. I had plenty of adjustment in the Minox scope but I don't think I've ever been off that far before. I didn't check to see if the scope was centered from the factory but I normally assume that they are.

Most of my shots were fireforimg rounds with relatively light (.243Win max) loads of H380 under Nosler 55gr LF. They weren't too bad, certainly could have killed a woodchuck at 200 yards (max range for the day) but I'd like better groups in the end.

After I got it close, I switched to last years deer load, an 80gr Barnes TTSX over 47.1gr Rl-17. This load's doing about 3,550 from the 24" barrel.

Changing powder residue in the barrel had her a little crazy for a couple shots (expected), not to mention the different bullet and speed, had her shooting about 5" higher than the 55s at 100 yards but I got her dialed in after a few.

The final group of 4 shot with the Barnes at 100 yards, using a bipod. I didn't measure but the largest dimension but it was very close to be the same 1" line spacing on the target, which would make the group just over 3/4".

After I got home, the mailman brought me the new trigger guard and correct magazine from Savage. I had forgotten that the magazine actually has a small steel piece that goes between the action and stock. I don't know how much that piece not being there may or may not have effected anything.

I've got a good number of fireformed cases now so I can do some real accuracy testing next time, hopefully under better weather conditions.

 

[PVL]

TOBNPR is right about wood changing dimensions... I moved to the high desert where it is dry, and now the frets on my Stratocaster stick out 1/32" on each side of the neck.

If it will happen to a guitar, it will happen to a rifle.

There is a guy here who specializes in filing down the frets on a desert-dried guitar, it happens that often here.

 

[MattShlock]

Laminated/plywood is much less susceptible to the vagueries of "conditions" because of the alternating layers offsetting each other.

No-one here is saying that laminated wood can't at all be changed by conditions. Yet they are close to synthetic stocks: forget the alternating layers, they are usually pressure resin bonded. Ever wonder why they are so heavy and dense feeling? Can be milled to metal tolerances!? They're basically polymer filled wood...

But some here seem to insist that, simply, laminates are like regular ol' wood and appear to be intentionally misleading the unknowing here it seems to me. Why wood (play on words intended) you do that!?

There is a WORLD of difference between laminated and single piece-of-wood stocks.

 

[taylorce1]

Brian,

I'm sure you'll get a load worked out quickly on your rifle. Can't wait to see it sitting next to dead chucks or a nice white tail deer.

No-one here is saying that laminated wood can't at all be changed by conditions. Yet they are close to synthetic stocks: forget the alternating layers, they are usually pressure resin bonded. Ever wonder why they are so heavy and dense feeling? Can be milled to metal tolerances!? They're basically polymer filled wood...

But some here seem to insist that, simply, laminates are like regular ol' wood and appear to be intentionally misleading the unknowing here it seems to me.

Exactly, and what makes me go "hmmm" the most is a guy who is selling Rutland laminate gunstocks didn't even know what they were made from. How can you not know the product you're marketing?

The Stock Market

The most stable of stocks are laid-up fiberglass and laminated wood. Excellent examples of each are McMillan’s Hunters Edge and Boyds’ JRS Classic.

Wood laminates are extremely stable because each veneer’s grain structure is oriented differently from its neighbor, thus negating any tendency to warp in any one direction. With each layer being separated by a micro-thin layer of epoxy, the stock is highly resistant to moisture. With any kind of protective finish at all, it is virtually inert.

Firearms Stocks: Walnut, Laminated Hardwood, Composite, Synthetic or What?

One of the best current alternatives is laminated hardwood stocks. Formed under high pressure and heat, they are far stronger than generic plastic stocks, do not degrade with exposure to UV and humidity, do not absorb moisture, do not out gas, are more rigid and promote accuracy as a direct result of that rigidity. They have only one negative in the minds of many: as glue is used between the strips of wood, they may be heavy compared to thermoplastic stocks and are denser than natural walnut.

The Rifle Stock

Laminated wood stocks are actually the strongest and most stable of all stocks. Functionally, they are superior to both solid walnut and the synthetics. If laminated from decent woods and well finished they can be quite attractive. They are cheaper than solid walnut stocks because they are made from smaller slices of wood, most of which cost less than good walnut. The grain in the various layers of wood is designed to run in different directions and cancels out any tendency of the stock to warp. When properly glued under pressure and sealed laminated stocks are immensely strong and warp resistant, and virtually impervious to the elements. Laminated stocks are generally regarded as the stiffest and most accurate type of stock.

 

[AllenJ]

Thank you for the range report, it sounds like an accurate rifle if you're getting 3/4" groups with unformed brass. I'm very impressed that you got RL-17 to shoot good in your rifle as my Vanguard S2 in 243 hates the stuff. After shooting some Barnes 80 grn TTSX using IMR4350, and getting multiple 1/4" groups with it, I decided to try RL-17. Groups exploded to 3-5" with all bullets I tried ranging from 80 to 100 grn. I'm now using it for my sons 7mm Rem Mag and on a good day we get MOA or slightly less using Sierra 160 SBT.

 

[Jbotto]

Pretty rifle Brian! She's a keeper!

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I'm sure you'll get a load worked out quickly on your rifle. Can't wait to see it sitting next to dead chucks or a nice white tail deer.

I was tinkering around in the reloading room and I got to measuring some bullets.

The 55gr, which we've haven't been able to group really well, measure 0.2429". Hm.

All my other bullets, of several calibers, measure between 0.0000 and 0.0002 over caliber.

I know that best accuracy is 3 or 3 ten-thousandths over caliber size so that may explain why they don't do so great. They're not terrible, but unimpressive.

Thank you for the range report, it sounds like an accurate rifle if you're getting 3/4" groups with unformed brass. I'm very impressed that you got RL-17 to shoot good in your rifle...

Those TTSX loads were actually formed brass from last year, I just didn't have very much of it.

I wouldn't put to much stock in it just yet.

Last night I tried to mount another scope on my Encore using a Craftsman In-lb torque wrench. Man, automotive torque wrenches (normal priced ones) are such crap.

Anyway, I got fed up and ordered the Wheeler scope mounting kit with the lapping rods and what-not. I'll be able to see if the DNZ mounts are the reason that I was 8" off at 50 yards AND get the bolts torqued down correctly.

 

[PawPaw]

I was tinkering around in the reloading room and I got to measuring some bullets.

The 55gr, which we've haven't been able to group really well, measure 0.2429". Hm.

What are you measuring them with? A caliper or a micrometer? Calipers don't do a real good job of measuring bullets. For precise measurements under an inch, a micrometer is the best tool.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Micrometers

 

[reynolds357]

Brian, the Minox was probably not centered. None of mine have been.

 

[std7mag]

Great looking build Brian!!

Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, as long as you are happy with it!!

Course me being me, I probably would have gone with the 6mm-284...
But that's just me...

 

[reynolds357]

std7mag, you mean a 6xbarrel burner?
I built one a few years ago for 1k yard match. Accuracy had gone to trash at about 900 rounds. That was my first and last 6x284. All that project turned into was a good waste of a very good Shilen barrel.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well, the AI isn't going to be the barrels best friend either.

 

[reynolds357]

The AI should not be too awful. It has same case cap. as 6mm Rem if I am not mistaken. 6Rem is not a burner.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

It's all a matter of where you draw the line, I suppose.

If I were getting serious, high-end competition winning accuracy, say 1/4-1/5 MOA at 100, I would expect maybe 800 rounds of peak life.

Since I'm probably more likely to see 3/4 MOA, I may get two or three times that much or more.

The AI is rather severely over-bore and high-pressure to boot. I tend to shoot light bullets at high-speed too, which is a smaller factor but it certainly doesn't help life.

 

[Colorado Redneck]

Bedding and pillars

I am no expert, but I agree with you Brian--if the rifle shoots good enough for you, and you really aren't feeling the need, don't bed it. Pillars aren't that difficult, but with a bit of care can be done by a rank armature (like me).

If you decide to bed the action, purchase an Acraglas kit. Has everything you need.

As to the accuracy of your beautiful rig, load development can be a process, and bullets that you might like, your gun might hate. Don't get discouraged and try all of the stuff (you know the deal--COL and seating depth, various charges etc) till you get the right mix. I have tussled with a .204 Ruger all summer, as the Berger Bullets that it loves are unavailable. Finally (at the tail end of the prairie dog shooting) got a load that works pretty good.

Enjoy! A project like yours is something that gives lots of satisfaction. Thanks for sharing!

CR

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Bah! The .204 is easy!

28.0gr Benchmark under 32gr V-max, shoots under 1/2MOA.

(Least mine does.)