Point of impact off?

[44 AMP]

, the front sight is too tall...

Maybe... or maybe the rear sight is too short?? seriously,,,

You've got other 1911s so measure the sights on them and on the pistol shooting too low, and see if they actually are different heights.

Is the front sight staked in or is it installed in a dovetail??

The sight and target alignment where the top edge of the front sight (level with the top edge of the rear sight) is held in the center of the target is called "Center hold" (is that what you are calling "dead hold?) The other common sight picture is with the sights lined up and the bottom of the bullseye is put on top of the front sight. This is called the "6 o'clock" hold,

Developed by bullseye shooters, using black sights, shooting at black targets, at known distances. It is popular in other shooting situations too, because using that style sight picture doesn't cover up the target.

There are also other reasons why they gun is shooting low than just the sights. Shoot the gun at other distances (and do try some at 25yds, just to see), have some other people shoot the gun as well. If the results are consistent, everyone shoots low at all ranges, then its probably the gun, and then its time to take to the maker. It might be the sight. It also might be a manufacturing error that has the barrel pointing "down" when the gun is in battery. That would be something the maker has to fix.

When asking questions, naming the gun by make and model in the opening post is never a bad idea. Just saying "I have a 1911 that does this..." is like saying "I have a pickup truck that does this..." Identify the make and model and you might find someone who has the same gun, and might already know if that model has some kind of quirks not common to the rest.

 

[HiBC]

Lets not forget the sights are on the slide,and the rear of the barrel tilts up into lockup in the slide.
To me,this might mean you have exceptionally good,deep locking lug engagement. Not a bad thing.
Unless you spent a lot of money,the gun is an assembly of production parts.
I don't know you or how you shoot. I suggest you use a high,tight grip.

Next I suggest you move back to 25 yds . Don't use a round bull.

Use the back of a target and a horizontal line. Something that looks like a strip of tape across the target. A horizon. Don't worry about group. Focus totally on a consistent grip,on having the sight picture the blade in the notch,dead flat level as you call your shot,and of course,use the horizontal line to shoot at.

All in the world you want to focus on is seeing what your elevation is. Forget windage for now. And,when shooting,don't worry where you are left/right.

Call your shots. You must have your eyes open to see the sight picture as the gun recoils. If you can't do that,your eyes are closed.

You determine how many shots to a strig...whether you shoot 3 or 5 or a magazine..just do what you can do most precisely. We all get wobbly and push at some point. Don't push.

Shoot maybe 30 rounds that way. Don't even worry about looking at the target.Don't make any corrections trying to make it better.

Just shoot your most perfect 30 round sample at that horizontal line.


Then measure bullet hole to the horizontal line and average them. That ought to tell you what your elevation is.


Consider your new 1911 may have a different length trigger or mainspring housing.Those can ake a difference from your other 1911s and you can change a trigger or mainspring housing.


If you need to make a sight correction,first measure your sight radius.


I don't know what it is. Lets use 6 in for the formula. Your range is 25 yds.We need a common unit of measurement.Lets use inches.
25 yds is 900 inches. Divide you 6 in sight radius into 900 inches,and you get 150. The important part,rour range is 150 sight radius lengths. This means any sight change will be multiplied 150 times.

So,for an example,a sight change of .010 will show up as 1 1/2 in at the target.

A typical combat military style 1911 does not have a tall front sight. Not much to file down. But taller rear sights,perhaps designated as "NM" are not hard to find. Maybe check an outfit called "10-8" I'm sure there are others. Maybe Harrison.


By using that math,you can know "I need to move the sight .018 right and .012 up" or whatever. It is better than just beating and filing poke and hope.


For windage,you can do a similar drill with vertical tape or line.Shoot 30at the vertical line focusing only on exactly the same light gap in the notch on both sides of the blade. Don't worry as much about elevation.Just shoot for perfect windage.


One other thing to check,see how your barrel bushing fits


I wouldn't get TOO excited about some working clearance


With a 5 in barrel,which "goes into" 900 inches 180 times,.005 working clearance at the bushing might contribute 0.900 in,less than 1 in,to dispersion. .If that gets to be .020 or so,its a real opportunity for improvement (near 4 inches at 25 yds)

 

[JDBerg]

Take the gun to a reputable gunsmith to have it zeroed to shoot good quality ammo 1.00” high at 25 yds. Which is a good zero since will ensure practical accuracy at distances out to 25 yds. If a 1911 can’t hold that zero it needs work, if it’s zeroed properly and the accuracy is still off, there are technique issues to deal with.

 

[Koda94]

Maybe... or maybe the rear sight is too short?? seriously,,,

You've got other 1911s so measure the sights on them and on the pistol shooting too low, and see if they actually are different heights.

Is the front sight staked in or is it installed in a dovetail??

The sight and target alignment where the top edge of the front sight (level with the top edge of the rear sight) is held in the center of the target is called "Center hold" (is that what you are calling "dead hold?) The other common sight picture is with the sights lined up and the bottom of the bullseye is put on top of the front sight. This is called the "6 o'clock" hold,

Developed by bullseye shooters, using black sights, shooting at black targets, at known distances. It is popular in other shooting situations too, because using that style sight picture doesn't cover up the target.

There are also other reasons why they gun is shooting low than just the sights. Shoot the gun at other distances (and do try some at 25yds, just to see), have some other people shoot the gun as well. If the results are consistent, everyone shoots low at all ranges, then its probably the gun, and then its time to take to the maker. It might be the sight. It also might be a manufacturing error that has the barrel pointing "down" when the gun is in battery. That would be something the maker has to fix.

When asking questions, naming the gun by make and model in the opening post is never a bad idea. Just saying "I have a 1911 that does this..." is like saying "I have a pickup truck that does this..." Identify the make and model and you might find someone who has the same gun, and might already know if that model has some kind of quirks not common to the rest.

Actually, I had thought of the rear sight but its custom made by the manufacturer and I have no way to compare it... let alone measure it. I can compare it to my other commander slide and its taller (on the new gun) but the sights are different kinds between guns including the rears so I don't know how to compare.

the hold I'm using is a "dead on hold" or a "cover up" hold.... matches what you are calling a "center hold". I personally don't like this hold although I do ok with it in my other pistol that shoots that way.

The only thing I can do at this point is fire at 25 yds to see how it hits if its zeroed at that distance on the first intersect point (which, I think would be odd...). also, I don't have access to a rest so that will be putting my ability to the test and hopefully I can group everything in the 8" target at that distance.

Lastly, I didn't name the mfg on purpose. I have a dilemma with them with a very long history of warranty returns for this one purchase and don't know what to do here as I feel I am literally at my ropes end and they will tell me to take a hike at this point because this one is literally a complete warranty replacement. Ethically I want to respect the company and offer them a chance to fix, yet again, before I gave any bad reviews. This is a high end pistol I paid good money for but I am at their mercy at this point. I know for a fact its not my shooting technique because the prior one was virtually the same model and its sight in was perfect zero (when it ran). What would you do?

 

[Koda94]

Take the gun to a reputable gunsmith to have it zeroed to shoot good quality ammo 1.00” high at 25 yds. Which is a good zero since will ensure practical accuracy at distances out to 25 yds. If a 1911 can’t hold that zero it needs work, if it’s zeroed properly and the accuracy is still off, there are technique issues to deal with.

actually this is a good idea I think the gunsmith near me has a zero range in his shop. I cant recall, but cant hurt to call and ask.. if he does he probably has a randsom rest, would provide definite evidence the sight is off.

 

[TunnelRat]

Lastly, I didn't name the mfg on purpose. I have a dilemma with them with a very long history of warranty returns for this one purchase and don't know what to do here as I feel I am literally at my ropes end and they will tell me to take a hike at this point because this one is literally a complete warranty replacement. Ethically I want to respect the company and offer them a chance to fix, yet again, before I gave any bad reviews. This is a high end pistol I paid good money for but I am at their mercy at this point. I know for a fact its not my shooting technique because the prior one was virtually the same model and its sight in was perfect zero (when it ran). What would you do?

I don't see the dilemma. You could have told us the manufacturer without mentioning all the other issues and giving us a "bad review" and all we would have known was pistol X from company Y may have had a shorter than desired front sight or some other issue that is hardly abnormal in the world of firearms. Of course that went out the window with this last post.

But more to the point, how does ethics factor into making factual statements? You bought a pistol that is currently exhibiting this phenomenon. How is stating the brand and model a breach of ethics in that circumstance? I've had issues with plenty of manufacturers and I have no issue discussing them, as well as the final solution that resulted.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[Koda94]

But more to the point, how does ethics factor into making factual statements? You bought a pistol that is currently exhibiting this phenomenon. How is stating the brand and model a breach of ethics in that circumstance?

I'm worried after all Ive been thru with them they wont honor their warranty with me anymore. My hunch is they read forums, Ive heard anyways. This would be return #5 I think over 2 years of returns and lengthy negotiating and I don't feel they believe me anymore. Ive had nothing but problems with their product and NEVER had a reliable pistol the whole time.

 

[TunnelRat]

That's sad then, and frankly a company like that deserves to be called out. I get the situation you're in and hopefully it does get resolved.

I've had issues with pistols that cost me $300, and I've had issues with pistols that cost me $1200. I don't harbor ill will if the company makes an honest attempt to fix the problem and admits when there is a problem.

 

[Koda94]

I've had issues with pistols that cost me $300, and I've had issues with pistols that cost me $1200. I don't harbor ill will if the company makes an honest attempt to fix the problem and admits when there is a problem.

same ...and therein lies my dilemma. 2 years since investing in their product and returns and negotiating when I didn't feel I should have to plead a case so badly but then they honor my request in the end with a replacement, and now this. How long should it take? I paid $1489 for it brand new.
I'm listening to the advice in this thread closely for anything I can do to make darn certain its not me, but I know for a darn fact my shooting is good (their first pistol was a tack driver when it ran).

 

[jmr40]

Before you do anything back up and shoot it at longer ranges. I'm betting the POI is much closer to POA at 15-25 yards than 7. But either way at least you'll know before you start making changes.

 

[Metric]

IMO, the only time to hold back on discussing a company name on a forum like this is when the company is actively trying to solve a problem, but it is not yet solved. If they are actively trying to help, just wait and see what happens, because the outcome is still very uncertain. If they are dragging their feet over a long period of time, then it no longer counts -- the quality of service is itself a topic of interest.

 

[tipoc]

Earlier 44 amp made this point:

The sight and target alignment where the top edge of the front sight (level with the top edge of the rear sight) is held in the center of the target is called "Center hold" (is that what you are calling "dead hold?) The other common sight picture is with the sights lined up and the bottom of the bullseye is put on top of the front sight. This is called the "6 o'clock" hold,

The point here is that sight pictures actually have formal and proper names that come to us from decades of shooting. That's why when you said "dead hold" no one knows what that means other than you.

The most common are the 6 o'clock hold, the center hold and the frame hold (also referred as the combat hold by some).

Here's a link to a piece that shows these and explains them some. Rifle sights are shown but you'll get the idea.

http://www.odcmp.org/0907/default.asp?page=USAMU_SIGHTPICTURE

Here also is a link to a thread from another forum where a fella had a similar issue that you have and had to do some figuring.

https://www.migunowners.org/forum/s...nt-of-Impact-6-O-clock-Hold-Combat-Sights-etc

tipoc

 

[dahermit]

Brand new 1911, first time firing it and the POI is way off for me. Sights are fixed (non-adjustable) combat sights.

I could be wrong, but I don't know of any 1911's with a "fixed" rear sight. Are you sure the rear sight is not drift adjustable?

 

[44 AMP]

Actually, I had thought of the rear sight but its custom made by the manufacturer and I have no way to compare it... let alone measure it. I can compare it to my other commander slide and its taller (on the new gun) but the sights are different kinds between guns including the rears so I don't know how to compare.

Compare the sights by eye, and measure their height, from the slide top to the top edge of the blade. Use a caliper if possible. The measurement doesn't have to be super precise, a couple thousandths of an inch don't matter, a couple of tenths of an inch absolutely do matter.

Lets go back to basics for an illustration. Take a pencil or ruler, hold it somewhere near the middle. Call that the front sight. Pick one end, call it the rear sight , the other end is your bullet point of impact.

Raise the "rear sight end". Where does the "point of impact" end go? It goes DOWN. Sight height is a calculated relationship, between front and rear, and desired point of impact Too high a rear sight and the pistol will shoot low. Too low, it will shoot high.

Check with the maker and find out what range the gun is factory zeroed at. Shoot it at that range and see what happens. If the point of impact (with the correct ammo) is off at that distance (usually 25yds), THEN you MAY have a warranty problem.

The "kind" of sight, meaning the style of the sight really doesn't matter as much as the height of the sight. Custom made or production item, "low profile", melted, wide notch, U-notch, V-Notch Square notch, dots or not, doesn't matter, in this case. What matters is the relationship between the heights of the front and rear sight with each other, and the desired point of impact at the desired range.

You bought a gun with sights you cannot adjust. You are not getting the results you want at a distance significantly different from the distance the factory sights are zeroed for. Is it the maker's responsibility to fix this?

Perhaps. Factories have been known to put the wrong height sight on guns, as well a make all kinds of other mistakes. You need to figure out where the mistake is being made, in their product, or in your expectations of what it should do. Might be one or the other, or both together, I can't really tell from here.

If your other 1911s do what you want them to do, and the (rear) sight height is different from the gun that shoots low, that should tell you something.

 

[Koda94]

44amp, all good advice. Thats what im looking into before deciding what action to take...

 

[tipoc]

Two other points.

Point One:

In the first post the shooter says he was shooting at a 3" target at 3 yards and a 8" target at 7 yards.

Shooting at a target at 3 yards will not tell you much about the accuracy of the gun and shooter. I't simply too close. It's useful for some self defense drills but not at all for accurate shooting.

The 8" target is too large for 7 yards. This is a target that is intended for 25 yards and beyond aimed fire. In practice what the shooter ends up aiming at is the 1" red dot in the middle if they are trying to be accurate, and that's a waste of a good shoot-n-see. The only use of a target that large at such a close distance is for rapid fire one and two handed drills where the goal is to keep all shots in the black.

What the op can do is to set a 3" bull at 10 yards and aim and shoot at that. This will tell you more about the gun, the ammo and your shooting than either of the options the op used. It will also allow the shooter to get a better idea of the sight picture the sights are set for.

Remember: aim small, miss small.

Point Two:

When a gun sights are set for 25 yards, which most 5" barreled fixed sight 1911's are, the 230 gr. bullet will have a mid range trajectory of .400" of an inch high. Bullets travel in an arc. This means that a gun set to have the bullet hit the center of the target at 25 yards at 12.5 yards the bullet will be less than half an inch higher than the bullseye. There is a difference between the straight line from the sights to the target and the flight of the bullet as the bullet travels in an arc. This is what Koda94 is referring as the "intersect points" of the bullets flight and is a concerning factor for him.

What does this mean in practical terms? Well it ranges from nothing to not much at all. A person can worry that if the sights are set for 25 yards won't I be shooting 2 or 3" low at 10 yards? No you won't because the the difference is less and half an inch. You can prove this for yourself easily.

That .400" is less than you will normally see from differences in brands of ammo from many guns. It's demonstrably less than the differences in bullet weights and their point of impact. It's also much smaller than most groups.

tipoc

 

[Koda94]

So if the mid range of a 25yd zero is only .400" then that validates that my sights are off. The distances i wused in my targets the POI would be practically on bullseye.

 

[tipoc]

Actually, I had thought of the rear sight but its custom made by the manufacturer and I have no way to compare it... let alone measure it. I can compare it to my other commander slide and its taller (on the new gun) but the sights are different kinds between guns including the rears so I don't know how to compare.

Your gunsmith, or any machinist, will be able to measure this. Your gunsmith can readily compare it to other fixed sight 1911s. He can also tell you if the sights are centered on the slide. Your concern was for both windage and elevation. The rear sight can be drifted for the windage.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

So if the mid range of a 25yd zero is only .400" then that validates that my sights are off. The distances i wused in my targets the POI would be practically on bullseye.

Maybe. It should be about right. But in the pics you show, especially in the 8" target shot at 7 yards it looks like you are about 2" low and 2" to the left from the center of the group to the center of the target, with what looks like a bit less for the 3 yard group. That's a radical difference at such a close range.

BTW did you measure the groups and the distance from the center of the group to the point of aim?

Again it seems a radical difference for such a close range. 3 yards is one long step away and 7 yards 3 steps away from the muzzle. If the point of aim was the center of the target then the sights would be visibly off to the naked eye. No need to measure you'd see them as off.

However that distance could be accounted for by shooter error.

A pic of the sights would help.

Go to the range and try a 3" bull at 10 yards. Also ask the range officer or another capable shooter to try the gun. Small bull at 7 yards or 10 and see what happens.

tipoc

 

[elsancudo]

If there is any way to clamp it down thoroughly on an immovable table, you can sight it with one shot. Clamp it down, fire at target, then adjust sights with a sight pusher until they line up on that one bullet hole.