Point of impact off?

[Koda94]

I have a dilemma and need opinions...

Brand new 1911, first time firing it and the POI is way off for me. Sights are fixed (non-adjustable) combat sights. I need the brutal truth if its just me or if this should go back to warranty repair. All other 1911s I shoot are dead on.

The smaller 3" target was shot at from 3yds, the larger 8" target was shot at from 7 yards (forgive the two fliers, that was me...). Both standing, slow fire using a dead hold sight picture every shot right over the center bullseye. I'm less concerned about the windage but the low POI is too much for me.

Is it me or are the sights off? I don't have this problem with any other 1911, what would you do if your new one shot this way?

 

[zeke]

Thats a lot at 7 yards. Would let someone else try it, and bench rest it. If you get the same results would contact manufacturer.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

Well I'm not sure on all models but most 1911 sights are set to be zero'd at 25 yards so at the 7 yards you were shooting that would be why the POI is low. The shooting left could be you, or it could be the sights. Shoot it at 25 yards off a rest and see where you stand.

 

[Sharkbite]

Low left (for a right handed shooter) is almost always a trigger control/flinch issue.

Try some slow fire and concentrate on getting the slack out of the trigger and then building to a surprise break. Mix in some ball and dummy to see how you are doing.

 

[Koda94]

These are all good suggestions. I was wondering what the typical zero 1911s are set at and if I should try more distance.... but whats odd here is Ive never experienced a low POI like this before with other 1911s.

Low left (for a right handed shooter) is almost always a trigger control/flinch issue.

yes, but its just this pistol... also I fired 28 rds at the larger target, the two fliers are indicative of flinching as you describe (I'm right handed) but the rest of the group is tight. I would think if I had a flinching issue my group would not be so tight. The 3" dia target suggests the same consensus as well.

 

[TruthTellers]

Dude, I have the new Charter Arms Professional .32 Mag revolver and at 5 yards it shoots 6 inches low. That's an obvious defect from the factory (I happen to know what the issues is) but what you have is likely just you shooting or the ammo you're shooting.

Try different ammo, different bullet weights, and shoot sitting down off a rest with a good trigger pull. Even at 8 yards it's not difficult to shoot a brand new to you handgun improperly.

The good thing about a gun that shoots low is the fix for that is easy by filing the front sight lower.

The fact the group you have is one giant hole is very encouraging that you have a good gun and it's just your technique causing the issue, but let this be a lesson to you of the disadvantages of fixed sights.

 

[44 AMP]

What ammo did you use?? Most 1911 "combat" sights are set for 230 GI ball and 25yds.

Low, left is PROBABLY you, but not just you, you AND a new gun.

Have someone else shoot it. If its entirely the gun, the results should be similar to yours. If its different, then you are probably the problem.

 

[Metric]

There is a good chance the new sights are set up for a "combat sight picture," while you are using a "center hold" or a "target sight picture."

That is, the sights were set up under the assumption that you will cover the bullseye with the center of the front dot -- a combat picture. If the gun is set up to do this, but you are instead putting the front sight under the bullseye, guess where your shots are going to go?

 

[Koda94]

There is a good chance the new sights are set up for a "combat sight picture," while you are using a "center hold" or a "target sight picture."

That is, the sights were set up under the assumption that you will cover the bullseye with the center of the front dot -- a combat picture. If the gun is set up to do this, but you are instead putting the front sight under the bullseye, guess where your shots are going to go?

Im using a dead hold sight picture,.... I Cant use any other sight picture that would raise the POI if a dead hold shoots low.

 

[Koda94]

What ammo did you use?? Most 1911 "combat" sights are set for 230 GI ball and 25yds.

Low, left is PROBABLY you, but not just you, you AND a new gun.

Have someone else shoot it. If its entirely the gun, the results should be similar to yours. If its different, then you are probably the problem.

I shot Seller n Bellot, Magtech, Remington UMC.... All 230g FMJ.

The windage isnt me but thats an easy fix.

Ive never encountered this before, all my other 1911s at the same distance are perfect zero. Im willing to give this another try, maybe try something different.... But I think they put the wrong front sight in at the factory.

 

[TunnelRat]

Which pistol from which manufacturer?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[Walt Sherrill]

1) Ask another known good shooter to try the gun, and see what results he or she gets. If its also still low left, see point 9) below. (The LEFT can be fixed by moving the sights, but the low can't be fixed without a new sight.)

2) If you can't find a good shooter, get yourself a small bag of rice or beans from the grocery store.

3) Go to the range, get ready to fire, sitting down, if possible. Move your target out to about 25 -30 feet. (25 yds is harder, especially with a new-to-you gun.)

4) shoot fewer shots. Maybe 4-5 at most, per target. That shows you how much YOU are varying in your shots. A big hole doesn't tell you much about your technique.

5) Rest the weak hand holding the gun on the bag, and SLOWLY squeeze off a shot. Do do a bunch, as 4-5 is enough!

6) Repeat. (Putting up several targets might speed things.

Note: This isn't a Ransom Rest test, but it will allow you to remove some potential human error.

7) If you're now on target, it was all technique. How to fix your technique?

• This is really common with folks moving from a hammer-fired guns to a striker-fired gun, and most overcome it pretty quickly.) Finger placement on the trigger may help. You may also be jerking the trigger, but doing it pretty consistently.

• Start by placing your finger on the trigger just to the left of the first joint at the end of the finger and work the finger in or out from there.

• You may be pushing the gun to the left as you pull if you're using the tip of the finger, and pushing or pulling it to the left or right if the joint of your finger is on the trigger. Big changes aren't necessary to see big results.

• The same sort of thing can happen if you're squeezing all of your fingers as you pull the trigger. You don't have to hold the gun in a death grip. Use your other hand to point it and keep it steady, and focus on moving your trigger finger only.

8) If you're now still hitting left, but the bullets are now more aligned with the center of the target), move the rear sight a tiny bit to the right (i.e., in the direction you want the point of impact to move to.) Move it just a little and try several shots. Adjust, if necessary.

9) If you're still low, but centered on the target, you can contact the gun maker and tell them how much you're low and the distance you used, and ask for a new lower front sight or higher rear sight. They should have one or the other. When the new sight arrives, you'll have to go through this drill again. (A brass punch and a small light hammer can be used to adjust the sight after it's installed. You might ask a local gunsmith to install the sight if you've not done it before.

Warning: some sight dovetails -- the slot in which it sets -- are slightly wider on one end than the other, and trying to take the old sight out and put the new one in can be perplexing if you push it in the wrong direction. Ask about that if you have to get a new front or rear sight.

 

[pete2]

I'd suggest you shoot it some more paying attention to hold and pulling straight back on the trigger. If another 100 rounds don't help you may have to adjust the sights. I've bought several guns in the past few years that shot low. The only fix was taller rear sights or filing the front sight. This was Beretta 92FS, 2 Ruger CMDs, Kimber 1911, Citadel 1911, Glock 19 Gen 5, latest is a Ruger Wrangler. Sometimes just shooting the gun will take care of shooting to the left, you may still shoot low and have to adjust the sights. I had to install a taller rear sight and move it to the right on the Glock.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...warranty repair..." That wouldn't be covered under anybody's warrantee.
"...put the wrong front sight in..." "They" cannot put the wrong sight on. "They" have no idea what ammo or what skill level their customer has.
I'm not entirely convinced it's the F 1/2 or Group 3 either. Unless the grips are off a bit.
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf
Moving fixed sights is best done with a high priced sight pusher. There's a universal(good for any 1911/A1) from sighttool.com that runs about $80US.
What's your POA? 6 o'clock or where?
"...low can't be fixed without a new sight..." It can by simply aiming higher. My Series 70 with fixed sights(never again) likes a dead on hold.

 

[Koda94]

When a 1911 is zeroed at 25yds, is that the first sight picture intersect or the second one?

So far Im not reading anything that indicates this is me. I can hold tight groups dead center at those distances with most any pistol.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Im using a dead hold sight picture,.... I Cant use any other sight picture that would raise the POI if a dead hold shoots low.

What's a "dead hold"? Center hold? Are you using white dots, with the front dot covering the center of the bullseye, or are you using the tops of the sights?

What others have said about most 1911s being zeroed for 230-grain ball at 25 yards is correct. My experience with pistols that have white dots is that the dots don't shoot to the same point of impact as using the sights is if they don't have white dots -- so I ignore the dots.

 

[rock185]

Koda, FWIW sights on any production gun are just ball park. That it does not shoot to the POI you prefer does not necessarily indicate anything wrong with the pistol, or your shooting. There is no way a factory can guarantee a pistol will shoot to a particular owner's desired POA/POI. This, because the manufacturer cannot know any particular shooter's grip, stance, vision, sight picture, trigger press, ammunition selection, etc., etc. With fixed sight pistols I have often had to drift rear sights for windage, and replace fronts to get the proper elevation. If I get a new pistol that happens to shoot right where I want it, Serendipity!!! More often than not though, some adjusting rears, and/or replacing fronts is involved. Then different ammo may put everything back to square 1. I sure like adjustable sights

 

[Koda94]

What's a "dead hold"? Center hold? Are you using white dots, with the front dot covering the center of the bullseye, or are you using the tops of the sights?

What others have said about most 1911s being zeroed for 230-grain ball at 25 yards is correct. My experience with pistols that have white dots is that the dots don't shoot to the same point of impact as using the sights is if they don't have white dots -- so I ignore the dots.

The only other name for it I know of is "cover up hold"... Basically bury the bullseye under the front sight. The sights are black notch flat novak style in the rear (no dots) and a trijicon dot up front sight. Ive had dots not match the sights and this isnt the case. Im holding the front trijicon dot dead center covering up the orange dot perfectly, the targets I posted represent that and i shot slow and steady to not flinch the trigger yes i had two 'fliers'..., so I do know the group is off. I can easily punch the centers out of those targets at those distances with any other 1911.

At this point I havent read anything here that Im affecting the POI, the front sight is too tall and not elevation zeroed at the recommended 25yds.

 

[TunnelRat]

Then just get a different front sight. You're convinced it's not you, so you know what your options are.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[tipoc]

Here's another thing to do: Look at the target and it seems that the center of your group is about 2" to the left of center. Also looks like the center of the group is about 2" low. So at 7 yards with the same size bullseye that you are using, aim 2" higher than the red dot and 2" to the right. Now shoot 5 rounds. If you are correct and it's the sights then the bullets should tear a hole in the red dot.

Alternately adjust how you aim.

After this, as others have said, you can either adjust the sights (rear sights are always drift adjustable). Or you can get a new sight for the front or rear.

Or you can just use Kentucky windage and homeboy elevation. Just change the point of aim since you know where the bullet will hit and call it a day.

tipoc