Opinions on Beretta 92

[JNewell]

Lots of people like SIGS. Most of them dont want to admit that the original sig design with the welded and pinned slide was a POC​

I have nothing bad to say about 92s, but the statement above is just not right. The SS slides were introduced when higher slide velocities and chamber pressures or the .40 and .357 made it necessary. Many prefer the original design for .45 ACP and 9x19. They perform perfectly. The only real issue is that they can rust if not given reasonable care. The Beretta metal treatment on the carbon steel slides is better than the "blued" carbon steel SIG slides.

 

[Handy]

Warhammer,

You quoted me, and then wrote something that would seem to be a refutation of the claim of somewhat limited durability. Then you wrote:

It helps of course if you replace the springs every so many thousand rounds and the locking block after the 15K point.

If it is a durable design, why would the locking components (the equivalent of the barrel lugs and slide on a Browning type), need to be replaced every 15,000 rounds? (A suggestion I previously made in this thread, BTW.)

It amazes me that you could quote me, call it faery poo, then plagerize me twice about the total service life and locking block replacement.

I don't know what everyone else is calling a long service life, but 25,000 rounds isn't it. Long starts at six figures and goes up from there. Many, many pistols are capable of this, without replacement of any major components. That was my point in saying "...not very durable. It won't fall apart, but has a much more limited life ..."

I can't think of any quality firearm that has a life well less than 25,000 rounds - can you? If not, what is the lower number that would be "not very durable", in contrast with the apparently very durable Beretta?

 

[Lavan]

IMO, the best bloody, muddy, knockabout, fighting pistol in the world.

 

[45R]

I cut my teeth on a 92FS. They can play with my Sigs any day! For trigger issues if the DA is too stout send it to Ernest Langdon. He does excellent work!

Best

45R

 

[croyance]

Handy, Warhammer did not say that the Beretta had a service life of 25000 rounds. He said that his friend's Beretta has 25000 rounds through it and the wear has caused it to be as loose as his (Warhammer's) new S&W .45 Auto or Cold GM are tight. That is, the wear of 15,000 rounds of +P and 10,000 of standard pressure hollow points made it as tight as a NIB S&W and Colt.

You would change the springs on any gun by that point.

As for the locking block, I cannot tell if he is saying that you must change it by then, or should as a preventative measure. All I can say is that after 10000 rounds on a used Beretta, the locking block on mine seems to be strong.

Didn't Ernest Langdon get well over 100,000 rounds over his competition Beretta?

 

[STLRN]

I carried my M9 for all of OIF, it proved very reliable when actually shooting. The biggest issue was the checkmate mags, they too rough a finish on the inside. The dust caused problems with rounds getting stuck while I would unload them for daily cleaning, even with Wolff +10 springs in them. However when I did fire it, the rounds went up the mag tube without an issue.

 

[warhammer357]

Name me three double action wondernines that have a service life that can beat the Beretta.
It ain' t Smith as the Smiths were breaking frames under 9000 rounds in the PDW XM9 military tests. It wasnt the Sigs either, which experienced frame failure at under 15,000 rounds.
Thats frame failure, pard, from a part that costs a lot less than a locking block.
The only DA nines I know of that can meet or exceed the B-92 design for round count durability are Glocks, which are actually sort of half cock action, not DA or SA, and the CZ-75.
On average the competitions pistols are not designed to last more than 10,000 rounds and many of them won't go that far. Part of the reason the B-92 IS so durable is because of its size. The pistol is bigger and thicker and that mass soaks up the recoil better.
The military trials requested 10,000 rounds without a parts failure. Beretta can do that. Lots of big name makers can't.
Thats 10,000 rounds with just cleaning mind you, not routine maintenance, which consists of changing parts.
All guns out there reallly should get routine maintenance, especially updating of recoil springs. You wouldnt be dumb ebough to drive a car 100,000 miles without an oil change would you?
For your information savy 1911 Shooters change the recoil spring every 1,000 to 3,000 rounds for the full lenght GMs. Commander and officers model pistols should be changed every 500 rounds.

And be aware, "Plagerism" is when somebody uses something somebody else came up with and pretends they wrote it themselves. When somebody puts these marks on something >>> << It is a reference to something somebody else wrote.
I see you are not a legal expert either.
For the record, I am the staff reporter of my hometown newspaper, I took a 500 level law class in college about libel, slander and plagerism and happen to know what I am talking about there, pardner.




>>>I don't know what everyone else is calling a long service life, but 25,000 rounds isn't it. Long starts at six figures and goes up from there. Many, many pistols are capable of this, without replacement of any major components. That was my point in saying "...not very durable. It won't fall apart, but has a much more limited life ..."

I can't think of any quality firearm that has a life well less than 25,000 rounds - can you? If not, what is the lower number that would be "not very durable", in contrast with the apparently very durable Beretta?<<<

 

[dfaugh]

Whoa...

You guys must shoot ALOT more than I ever expect to.... In all likelyhood I would probably practice once month, run a box of shells though it. That's 600 rounds a year. So it would take me over 16 years to put 10,000 rounds through it. And, I expect that I would have to periodically check for wear and replace anything that shows the slightest signs of wear (Yes, I routinely drive some of my vehicles over 200,000 miles, too!. The record is 235,000 miles, and th truck was still good mechanically, but living in the snowbelt pieces were starting to fall off when I hit rough pavement!). Now, I might end up shooting considerably more, but again, I expect to do maintenance commensurate with the amount of use. Anything I can put several hundred rounds through between changing out worn parts, I consider durable enough! But its good to know that, based on some of the posts, it'll take a few thousand rounds before I can expect to have to replace much of anything!

 

[Hard Ball]

If you never expose it to dust and sand, if you are lucky enough to have good magazines, are careful to replace the locking block before it breaks, then it may be a satisfactory pistol.

 

[Handy]

Cryonce,

Warhammer said:

The typical service life for these pistols is 20,000-35,000 rounds of standard ammo.

Warhammer,

I doubt you believe that the typical S&W or Sig alloy frame breaks at 9000 rounds and 15,000 rounds, respectively. But let's ignore the few other weakly designed alloy frame guns and talk about guns that do have service lives that greatly accede the Beretta:

1911
Luger
Broomhandle
P7
BHP
Ruger Autos
P9S
USP
Glock
Star 30
Sig 210 or M/49
Tokarev
Radom
Steyr
CZ-75
CZ-52
Lahti

etc, etc. The steel rails or heavily built alloy frames of those guns are not known to crack in any but the most extreme long term use. And none of them are prone to eating their locking system. And I think you realize that the Seals, who shoot as much or more as any other spec war organization are getting 6 or 7 times the 15,000 round life you bandy about for the Sig product.


No, I didn't think you actually "plagerized" my post, I just thought it was ridiculous that you quote me, then use the exact same evidence I offered as a lack of long term durability as just the opposite: And to refute my claim, no less!

 

[warhammer357]

Sorry friend,
But the Luger and Radom's don't count as Double Action autos. The Ruger P-85 series suffered from so many firing pin breakages that they had to go and redo the part, remember?
FYI the toggle link on the luger is not only prone to breakage, its also VERY sensative to sand and dust. There is a reason why a gun invented about the same time as the 1911 and the Smith revolver aint around no more, and its not just the 171 different machining actions that make it up.
Most modern DA 9s are designed to last 10,000 rounds, period. Many won't make that number. Some (Glock, Beretta, etc) will do more than that, but that is the general industry standard. Thats all the Military requested on those PDW XM9s too.
The Sig slide was designed back in the seventies to be cheap and easy to manufacture in quantity. Don't take my word for it. Look it up in the old Goerge C. Nonte Pistol guide.
The Beretta borrowd the locking block and open slide design from the Walther P-38. It also borrowed the high capacity magazine from the High Power and it borrowed the double action and decocking feature from Walther too.
Its a well thought out design. The frame and slide parts are fairly thick as well compared to other guns.
The locking block takes most of the abuse from the firing cycle.
The barrel stays in straight alignment on firing for better accuracy. The advantage of the high cap magazine is obvious. The designers who built this gun knew what they were doing.

I thought the conversation was about modern guns, not World War I souviners anyway.
The Star M-30 is a stud, but is it still even being made? I have nt seen one in forever.
I have a USP, and a Glock , but I am also not oblivious to recent reports of catastophic faulures in those arms too. Seeing as how the Glock biult its rep on durability, my guess is that folks are screwing up in the manufacturing end, not the design end. Ditto with the HK (albiet mine is a .40 and you cant hit the side of a barn from the inside with it, which is yet another reason I carry a 1911 .45).


As for the comments on military issue guns, just remember, the same military that issued the Peacemaker, the S&W Hand Ejector, the 1911, the Model 1917 Colt and S&W and the Smith Model 10 picked this one too. Thats pretty good company to keep in my book.

If you want more information about how the Beretta is manufactured and such, as well as a gunsmiths views, look here...

http://beretta.squawk.com/armorer.html

 

[warhammer357]

>>>The Army's testing shows that the locking block on an M9 will function for 17,000 to 22,000 rounds of NATO-specification (+p or +p+) ammunition before needing replacement.* Ted Nugent fired 100,000 rounds through his personal Beretta 92, replacing the locking block once.* Various SWAT teams have fired over 65,000 rounds through each of their Berettas without needing more than one locking block replacement.* There are actually two types of locking blocks, an older straight-sided version and a newer, redesigned version with a radius relief cut made along the sides for longer life.<<<

The Beretta L site goes on to explain that guns like Sig and Glock have the slide lock up on the barrel and dispose of a locking block. The downside of this is that when the guns show wear and tear , you either have to replace the slide or the barrell or both, instead of the fairly inexpensive in comparison locking block of the B-92.
Its one of the more durable MODERN DA guns out there, gunshop commandoes and internet gossip notwithstanding.

 

[don't shoot it's me]

What warhammer said.....it's a fine weapon...

 

[STLRN]

Amazingly for such a bad weapon, I have yet to see a report of a US service member being killed because of his pistol failing. If your in pistol range gun fight and your pistol fails, your probably going to end up dead, yet there aren't reports of that happening. I would also like to see of all those detractors in either OIF or OEF how many of those are actually issued pistols or have had to engage anyone with them.

 

[Handy]

I think some people are misunderstanding my perspective here. The Beretta 92 is a very reliable and accurate weapon that works great until it wears out. And it wears out sooner than quite a few other guns.

The downside of this is that when the guns show wear and tear , you either have to replace the slide or the barrell or both, instead of the fairly inexpensive in comparison locking block of the B-92.

I've heard this before from Beretta owners, and it is crazy. If you take the point of view that the locking block must be replaced before it fails, by 30,000 rounds a Beretta owner would have spent $120 on parts that the equivlents in a Browning gun wouldn't even show any wear. And those fresh locking blocks aren't slowing the wear on the rest of the gun - the frame rails and such are still taking the same kind of beating that a similarly constucted Browning gun would.

I'm unsure why only DA autos are useful for comparison: The DA trigger has no effect on wear. But even with that limitation, there are Spanish, Italian, Swiss, Belgian, US, German, Austrian and South African guns that will all perform in a very similar manner to the 92, cost about the same and last at least 3 times as long and have the same low incidence of minor parts breakage. That was my point.

To put it another way, if a friend asked you for a modern combat gun that would stand up to a huge amount of shooting (like IPSC practice), aside from any sort of intangible preference, why would you recommend a 92 over say a Browning or CZ? Could you honestly tell your friend that the Beretta will require less money in parts and will last as long for his high volume shooting needs?


As I stated in my first post, the 92 is a fine gun, but there are lot's of guns that will last longer, should that be a priority. As I keep the guns I like and wish to get a lifetime of shooting out of them, I personally am not interested in weapons of such limited life - and don't own any.

 

[Handy]

And Warhammer, before you go on praising our wise military, stop to consider some of their more recent accomplishments:

M-60 - a squad machine gun with a difficult to replace barrel.
M-14 - a select fire rifle with a boreline too high to control under full auto.
M-16 - the self cleaning rifle.
M-4 - issued as a rifle, but lacks effectiveness at combat ranges.

I won't get into F/A-18s or some other brilliant non-personal weapon systems the DOD has graced our servicemen with.


To my fellow gunshop commandos and internet gossipers - I'm only using the same numbers that you are. I guess to some people 20-35,000 rounds is a big number, and to people who shoot alot, not so much.

 

[Jamie Young]

I've got close to 18,000 rounds through my 92 and all I've changed is the recoil spring.

My Sig 239 has close to the same and its got a heck of a lot more wear.

 

[warhammer357]

>>I think some people are misunderstanding my perspective here. The Beretta 92 is a very reliable and accurate weapon that works great until it wears out. And it wears out sooner than quite a few other guns.
<<<
Theres no misunderstandings friend, you are just flat out wrong. There is no shame in being wrong either. Everybody makes mistakes. The only thing to be ashamed of is how long you hold onto a mistake or wrong idea. Lemme tell you, I am embarrassed to admit how long I stuck with my last girlfriend when everything screamed -"Get out of that relationship now!"
Before your pride or ego act up, stop and think rationally about the facts. When you do, you will see that there are not many modern guns on the market that last as long as a Beretta 92.
Have you read any of the DOJ reports from the late eighties about suitability and durability of handguns for law enforcement? I have. Some well known wheelguns wouldnt last 7,000 rounds with full power ammo, which were tested.

Lets see some real comparison examples if you can come up with them. And I mean modern double action autos with aluminum or polymer frames. Not single action museum peices that havent been manufactured in your lifetime.
(Also, I hate to break your bubble, but some of those guns in museums you list, were not all stars when it came to durability either. Remember, the original specs for the US military 1911 was 7,000 rounds without a parts breakage, and the 1911 outperformed everything else, including special .45 caliber Lugers submitted for testing).

The 1911 has a good rep for durability. Of course, it is chambered in a low pressure round, has (generally) all steel construction and a simple single action trigger design. Its not a DA nine either, so its sort of comparing apples to oranges. Its swinging barrel link and single action design also mean it can be flatter than more mod designs too.
Double action does make a huge difference in durability and reliability too. But don't take my word for it, look to what Chuck Taylor often points out.

Double action trigger linkages are more complex and have more parts than SA trigger linkages. They also require more room on the frame itself... Thats just one example of why SA guns tend to be a bit smaller. Less parts and less need for space to put em.


Almost none of the guns on your list will ever be found in a modern police or military holster, or in a CCW rig. When was the last time you really saw a cop with a Luger or a Radom in a thumb break rig?
I stand behind nobody when it comes to my liking of the Browning High Power. But todays High Power with its investment cast frame and slide ain't gonna last as long as a B-92, or for that matter the Taurus copy. Dont take my word for it. The various makers and importers do not recommend any plus P ammo in the High Power. The reason? Its internal parts are smaller compared to the internal parts in say a Ruger, Sig or Beretta.

When asked to name four guns besides Beretta and Glock that will last more than 30,000 rounds, what did you do? Come up with a list of obsolete single action junk that hasnt been manufactured in five decades or longer. You had the Star M 30, which may or may not even be in manufacture, and is much heavier than any other DA nine on the market, and the recalled Ruger and that was about all.
There are darn few guns out there that will last as long as a B-92. It will outlast SIGS, Smiths and Rugers aluminum frame, double action offerings and has proven it, time and time again, and the records are there for anybody who wants to look into the matter.
So far as I know about the only commonly encountered guns that will outdo it for durability are the Glocks with their much simpler trigger designs and polymer frames and possibly the H*K USPs.
The reason this pistol is rugged is simple physics. Look how thick the frame walls are and the slide rails. The original design had metal over the locking lug recesses too, which means it was probably even more durable. Its appreciably bigger than any other nine out there, which is why they did not have to redesign it to make a .40 out of it.
Ive never seen a SIG or Smith with 30,000 rounds through it. Or 20,000 for that matter. Does that mean they wont make it? I dunno. I just know that their own makers spec out these pieces for 10,000. I know many people in LE who use up tremendous numbers of rounds per year in all different makes and they all report the same information back to me -
Its like a car. If you get 300,000 miles out of it, its something special.

 

[warhammer357]

1911 - Not a double action design.
Luger- obsolete, toggle link action prone to breakage and jamming from debris
Broomhandle-obsolete
P7 - Good gun, but single action (squeeze cocking)
BHP-Good gun, but single action. Modern versions made from investment cast frames and slides- not warranted for plus p ammo because of small internal parts.
Ruger Autos- good guns, early models prone to breakages in firing pins and safeties.
P9S- Is it still being manufactured?
USP- Good design but recent copies have breakage issues.
Glock- Good design , but not a double action.
Star 30- Really great but underated gun. Is it still manufactured? Its heavier than a Model 29, or Super Blackhawk, by the way.
Sig 210 or M/49 -Single action.
Tokarev- Your kidding, right?
Radom- Hasnt been manufactured in five decades. Obsolete. Good gun for its time.
Steyr - Maybe the new polymer ones, but not that cheesy Rogak which was notoriously fragile.
CZ-75 -Good gun. Underated for the true performer it is - accurate and reliable and durable.
CZ-52 - Not a full size nine dude.
Lahti- LOL... Luger wannabe. Might have been acceptible in grandpappys day, but I doubt we will see any modern LE or Military agency adopting it.


I see four modern double action nines on this list. I see only two that have a well known better rep for durability than the Beretta (Glock, 1911) and both are basically SA designs.

 

[Hard Ball]

However, most of our soldiers and Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan mistrust the M9 Berettas. Those who are regularly in close combat replace them whenever they can. With what?
Obsolete old fashioned .45ACP Model 1911A1s.