Odd (to me) survival question regarding gun choice

[g.willikers]

Rothdel,
You realize what ever you choose will be mercilessly criticized.
Personally, I'd ignore the recommendations for a handgun and go with a pump shotgun.
Even though it's big and clumsy as compared to a handgun, when it's cold and your pal is wearing heavy clothes and thick gloves, the venerable 12 gauge might be just right.
And easier to use than trying to find and operate a pistol.

Everything I've ever read about bear attacks suggests there will be little time between realizing the danger and getting off even one shot.
And it will more than likely to be a really close shot.
He might just be staring right down the beast's craw.
Gotta' think that one shot should be a really big one.

 

[2ndsojourn]

Advise your friend to heed the bear warning signs.

http://uriupina.com/funny-cute/warning-bear-bells-pepper-spray

 

[Cheapshooter]

Does the above thought process make sense to all of you?

Makes perfect sense. A G20 will be more convenient to carry, have a higher capacity, more quickly reloaded, and is easier to shoot than a big, 44 Mag,or "pumped up" 45 Colt.
The whole premise missed by many is he is not going bear hunting. Only being prepared for a bear going people hunting.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

There is probably an abundance of Glock Certified Armorers there as is anywhere else.
If I was outfitting a bunch of people I didn't know with sidearms some flavor of Glock would be high on the list.

A lot of reliable sources claim most bear attacks result from bears being surprised. Things like people dismounting from boats onto shore without realizing there is a bear close.
Also things like fishermen carrying around food.
I have been told bear attacks on more than three people are exceedingly rare. Attacks on two people generally happen at night and in circumstances that might lead a bear to believe there is one injured animal writhing on the ground

If your friend is doing construction(loud), in a static location, with multiple people, and he isn't carrying a basket of fish, the chances of bea problems are probably quite minimal. If not, a construction crew all unloading 20mm Glocks on a confused bear will probably be effective.

Just tell him not to walk off into the woods after dark with someone for some unapproved missionary activity

 

[jr24]

My guess is many of the people involved are not firearm enthusiasts. A G20 is MUCH easier to shoot reasonably well for most people than a large bore revolver. Not even close.

I think this, plus ease of maintenance and weight are all factors. A Glock 20 is much easier to have on your belt while doing demanding tasks than a .44 mag, and if you're more likely to have the gun, your are more likely to get eaten while shooting wildly in the air (kidding, kinda).

When I lived out in the bush up in AK, I preferred a .44 mag loaded hot, as did the various other hunters, fishermen, guides, etc that I knew. Generally in a chest rig (I liked a Simply Rugged Cuda in the Chesty Puller) if you've got a parka/coveralls on. During the salmon runs I kept the .44 on my belt, a 12 gauge in the boat and spray on hand in case a bear just got a little curious.

In all honesty when out I was always far more concerned with getting trampled by a startled moose than running afoul of a grizz. That or getting carried off and drained of blood by mosquitoes.

Both my semi-autos (Glock 21 mostly up there) and revolvers worked fine in the frigid temps. My Hi-Power did get a little chokey one day when I was shooting on the tundra, probably -35 not counting wind. I THINK its because I was leaving my loaded mags on my snowmachine seat, in the wind and they were COLD, and possibly frozen. Still I only had a failure or two in a couple hundred rounds.

Bear defense is not a gunfight, and the single most important weapon you can carry is AWARENESS, not a gun. That being said, you ARE safer with awareness AND a good gun than with just awareness alone...

Agreed, too bad they are really sneaky buggers when they want to be.

 

[jmr40]

Glock 10mm pistols are quickly becoming the handgun of choice for people who live and work there. A 44 LOOKS good on paper until you realize the numbers are from 8" barrels. Start shooting 44mags through more compact 3-4" barrels that people actually use and the better 10mm loads are right there.

Despite the myth, semi autos have proven to be the more rugged design for outdoor use for over 100 years now. There is far more that can go wrong with a revolver in harsh conditions.

 

[Pond James Pond]

I'm surprised the organisers had not recommended everyone carry a decent can of bear spray.

Way less training needed, way less dangerous to fellow workers when half a dozen startled artisans drop chisels turn and all unload on the bear in their midst (Rule No. 4, anyone?) and finally of comparable effectiveness in dissuading bears, from what I understand...

Start shooting 44mags through more compact 3-4" barrels that people actually use and the better 10mm loads are right there.

Let's be fair!!
My 275gr hardcasts travel at about 1200fps from my 4" RH and I'm pretty sure Underwood/Buffalo Bore can do better!!

 

[agtman]

A 44 LOOKS good on paper until you realize the numbers are from 8" barrels. Start shooting 44mags through more compact 3-4" barrels that people actually use and the better 10mm loads are right there.

That's right.

And that same issue has come up again and again in comparative arguments over the chronographed fps/fpe stats between the .357mag revolver and the 10mm AUTO.

Not only do .357 wheelie fans ignore the reality of barrel length in fps/fpe arguments (data from 6"-8" target barrels vs. data from real-world carry guns with 2.5"-4" tubes), but in arguing the data they forget that a revolver with a 4" barrel isn't "equal" to a 4" or 4.25" barrel of an autoloader due to the non-traversed length of the autoloader's chamber. That chamber measurement has to be subtracted from the comparison.

Any given 10mm semi-auto "barrel" has about 1.265" taken up by its chamber, which the bullet does NOT traverse. So the 4.6" Glock 20 barrel has only (roughly) about 3.5" of actually rifled tube which the bullet and the gasses working it traverse before it exists the muzzle.

In other words, you need to compare apples to apples to make any meaningful comparison of the fps/fpe stats between the 357 mag v. the 10mm. And it's the same when doing any comparisons with the .44mag wheelgun.

The really astute folks here, of course, will note that the advent of the semi-automatic 44mag Desert Eagles and, more recently, the (1911-pattern) .357 Coonans makes for an easier and more equal comparative debate with 10mm fans over the fps/fps data.

 

[K_Mac]

I'm pretty sure the guys and gals who live and hunt in the Alaskan brush country have a pretty good, non-theoretical understanding of what firearms work well in their environment.

My guess is many of the people involved are not firearm enthusiasts. A G20 is MUCH easier to shoot reasonably well for most people than a large bore revolver. Not even close.

A novice (and many of the rest of us) with a hotly loaded big bore revolver has little chance of getting off more than one accurate round in a bear attack. A G20 is a better choice according to the locals doing the work. Working while packing a shotgun or heavy revolver would get old quickly. I am not a huge fan of the G20 or 10 mm in general, but if that is the right tool for the job then that's what I would take.

 

[SHR970]

A novice (and many of the rest of us) with a hotly loaded big bore revolver has little chance of getting off more than one accurate round in a bear attack.

Bears move pretty darn quick when they want to. If you are close enough for them to decide to charge you....you aren't getting off many shots with anything.

Working while packing a shotgun or heavy revolver would get old quickly.[

If you are used to wearing a tool belt all day then the extra weight of a big bore revolver isn't that inconvenient.

 

[SHR970]

Quote:
* * * The difference between getting 6 rounds off and 10 rounds off is most likely....you get neither.

It's Alaska, not New York. The G20 is good-to-go with a 15-rd magazine, or three.

You won't be able to dump the mag on a charging bear unless you are at a level that you can compete in IPSC at the higher levels...and even then you won't get that many shots off. They'll already be too close. A Griz can sprint 35 mph and have been observed doing over 25 for over 2 miles. Sprinting they are covering over 50 feet per second. How many accurate shots can you get off in 3 seconds? That is how long it will take one to cover 50 yards.

Edit to add: Remember the 7 yard rule concerning dealing with humans. You first have to recognize the danger, react, unholster, then shoot. For the average person, that takes about 1.5 seconds. And average man can cover 7 yards during that time.

 

[K_Mac]

If you are used to wearing a tool belt all day then the extra weight of a big bore revolver isn't that inconvenient.

Having packed a heavy tool belt around in an industrial setting for a few years in a former life, this just isn't true, at least for most folks. I was young and fit, and not working in the exhausting conditions of the Arctic. A couple of pounds is not a little weight, and a short barreled big bore is a poor choice, even in .454 Cassell..maybe especially in .454.

With a little training and practice a G20 might get the job done. It would be a very small percentage that could get anywhere near that performance with a big bore wheel gun without spending more time shooting one than most people will tolerate. I like revolvers, but taking the advice of the locals is the right thing to do. Of course I have never been much north of Niagara Falls..

 

[SHR970]

In a former life I worked construction.....spent several years wearing one myself. I'm not that big either.

While they are building stuff they'll be making enough noise that most bears won't do more than watch from a distance. It's when they aren't working that they will more likely need one on them.

 

[K_Mac]

SHR970, I once saw a video (that I can't now find) of a mother grizzly charge a hunter, guide, and cameraman. She closed maybe a hundred yards faster than I could believe. If it hadn't been for the cool head and great skills of the guide, there would have been carnage. Anyone who thinks they will have plenty of time in a bear attack shouldn't bet their life on it.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

The subject of the attack may not be able to dump a mag, but they won't be alone. The others on the trip will likely have plenty of time.

 

[kraigwy]

I believe we are talking opinions, Semi Vs Revolver.

I cant comment on the Glock or 10mm, I've have no experience with them but I with the heavy revolvers.

How many Model 29s or Ruger Black Hawks have you seen fail?

I got my Model 29 in the early 80s and have shot the crap out of it. It still works today.

Its little sister, the Model 28, my service revolver I was issued, carried most of my 20 years in LE, from the Mid 70s still works today, it was given to me when I retired, and is now my bowling pin gun, still works, I have no idea of the 10s of thousands of rounds it has fired.

If I was to pick a gun for survival in Alaska (been there 22 years) or any other purpose, I'd pick what works for me, not what some "group" tells me.

I will add, walking around the wilds of Alaska (or in the cities for that matter) you are more likely to have to deal with grumpy moose then any bear. Those puppies are lightning quick. Nothing is more dangerous then being caught between a momma and her baby moose.

That is just as or more likely to occur in your back yard in Anchorage as in the wilds.

People are noisy by nature and cant move quietly through the woods. Moose may hear you and move on. How ever in town, they are use to noise and don't move.

 

[dgludwig]

QUOTE: "...Personally, I'd ignore the recommendations for a handgun and go with a pump shotgun..."

I don't see this as an "either or" situation. There's no reason why not to have a handgun and a shotgun/rifle with you. And a can of bear spay as well. Relying on a handgun instead of a more powerful long gun is appropriate on those many occasions when it's impractical to be carrying a shotgun or rifle.

I do wonder what the procedure is to take a handgun to Alaska if you plan on driving through Canada to get there? Years ago, I met a fellow who was driving to Alaska and his advice was to mail your handgun to a friend/relative/acquaintance/gun shop in Alaska. Any other ideas?

 

[45_auto]

Any other ideas?

The Alaskan Fish & Game Department has some ideas on it (about halfway down the page - FIREARMS IN CANADA), but according to most of the posts on this thread, you shouldn't take the advice of anyone!

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=hunting.transportguns

 

[agtman]

I will add, walking around the wilds of Alaska (or in the cities for that matter) you are more likely to have to deal with grumpy moose then any bear. Those puppies are lightning quick. Nothing is more dangerous then being caught between a momma and her baby moose.

If folks would just focus on the facts which the OP gave us about his friend's activity up there, that would narrow the scope of this debate.

His friend WILL NOT be "walking around the wilds of Alaska." He'll be doing assorted construction tasks on site, and will have his hands occupied doing that work on site for most of the day.

Proceeding from that premise, advise the OP on an appropriate defensive firearm that's consistent with his friend's outdoor activity while up there ... Please.

 

[tony pasley]

Since he is going with others best advice for surviving a bear attack is to make sure he can out run at least one other members of the group