Odd (to me) survival question regarding gun choice

[FrankenMauser]

My father had one of the first Glock 20s.
I own several 'big bore' "magnum" revolvers.

If I had a choice out of all of them for daily carry in Alaska in an area known for bears, I'd probably take the G20 and a magazine or two on the other side.

Reasons (and likely the same justification as the recommending party):
0. Factory loads suck (10mm 'light' / .40 S&W 'hot'), but handloads can get the 10mm back to its appropriate power level.
1. Yank the trigger, and it goes bang.
--- Same thing with the DA revolvers, but not the SAs.
2. Magazine capacity.
--- A single magazine in the G20 dwarfs the capacity of the DA and SA revolvers by nearly three times the number of potential lead injections.
3. Reload time.
--- A G20 magazine can be dropped and replaced in a fraction of the time required to stuff a speed-loader into the cylinder of a DA revolver, let alone the time required to get an empty SA revolver back in the fight.
4. Round count.
--- In a tense situation with cold hands, you have to count on missing 90% of the shots. With a 6-shooter (or even 5-shooter!), that's not a good equation. But if you have 15+ rounds on tap, the odds shift.

With a G20 and two spare magazines, up to 46 rounds can be sent downrange in the time it takes gloved, cold hands to fire 12 rounds from a big-bore DA revolver, by the average shooter.


That being said....
If I had to choose from what I currently own, I'd probably grab the S&W 29. Six rounds of .44 Mag from a DA/SA revolver, with a good 'hard cast' bullet, are a helluva lot better than a fictional G20 that I can't afford. And I do have a few speed-loaders, and appropriate carry pouch, for the 29.

(The .480 Ruger SRH and speed-loaders would be a viable option. But the added weight and current lack of a holster or speed-loader pouch relegate it to the 'wishful thinking' pile.)

 

[Lohman446]

My guess is many of the people involved are not firearm enthusiasts. A G20 is MUCH easier to shoot reasonably well for most people than a large bore revolver. Not even close.

 

[Wadcutter45]

Why all the concern about being able to repair your firearm in the bush? Guns aren't that fragile. Load it, carry it, and don't screw around with it.

You're not going there on a military operation. Get to work and stop playing with your gun. It won't break unless you break it.

 

[Hal]

How well does a revolver function @ minus 40/50/60 * F ?

 

[Wadcutter45]

How well does a revolver function @ minus 40/50/60 * F ?

Probably a whole lot better than a guy from the lower 48 who went up there on a summer trip to volunteer building huts.

 

[44 AMP]

The .45 would detonate like a hand-grenade if loaded with a 200gn FMJ bullet at 1270fps, or a hardcast FN 220gn at 1200fps.

I have ".45s" that shoot a 230gr FMJ at 1500fps and the only thing that remotely resembles detonating like a hand grenade is the muzzle blast.

Of course, they aren't .45ACP, though one of them is a 1911A1 style pistol. (LAR Grizzly)

How well does a revolver function @ minus 40/50/60 * F ?

better than people do!

The problems of firearms in extreme cold are known, and can be mitigated, but not eliminated.

Lubrication has to be appropriate. NO lube is a better choice than the wrong lube.

AMMO loses power in extreme cold. This alone works against using a semi auto, particularly a recoil operated one.

Metal gets brittle, and breaks more easily. Here again, the semi auto is at greater risk, due to more (and greater) moving parts.

Guns worn outside clothing will be at ambient temps. Worn inside, you have to get them out, in time to be of use. Large potential problem there.

I do wonder at the safety of using a semi auto of the Glock type with arctic gloves. MAYBE the large capacity is needed, because you are likely to have a shot or two "wasted" getting a large gloved finger on the trigger...

Taking OFF the glove for more accurate shooting may not be an option, either because of time, or because of being near or at that part of the chart that says "exposed flesh freezes instantly"....

 

[agtman]

Of course, they aren't .45ACP, though one of them is a 1911A1 style pistol. (LAR Grizzly)

Yeah, funny stuff. Everybody's a comedian. I was referring to the .45acp. Thanks for the input, though.

 

[agtman]

My love affair with the 10mm began and ended about 25 years ago with a Colt Delta Elite. I liked the cartridge but after 2,000 rounds that 1911 frame was rattling and the accuracy seemed to fall off.

Dudenal, focus ... You apparently didn't read the OP's post carefully. For the time he'll be up there, his friend will be occupied mostly with construction tasks, not pounding 2K rounds of hot 10mm ammo through a Colt Delta or a Glock 20. Wear and tear issues, therefore, are irrelevant. Not in the game plan. Any shooting would be limited to emergency self-defense. He's not up there to hunt or plink.

Given a choice for Alaska? I am going with a S&W Model 29.

Seriously? Aside from being a limited-capacity wheelie, model 29s have acquired a well-know reputation for shaking themselves loose under a sustained diet of magnum loads in well under 400 or 500-rds - thereby needing a return trip to S&W for factory repair. That's much less than the 2K round count you assigned to the DE, and it's certainly not something you'd see with Ruger's Alaskan revolver in .44mag.

 

[Boncrayon]

I would recommend a .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum revolver with extra factory rounds. Up there, also a handy long gun in .3006 or 308 bolt action. Bears up north are bulky and very aggressive if they have cubs. Your ammo should be penetrating and damage worthy, such as Hornady or other non-hollow point bullet. You'll be driving the bullet through leather skin and bone before it opens.

 

[chuckscap]

I'm a semi-auto guy, but a revolver in 44 Mag would be my first choice if you're willing to carry it. If not a Glock 10mm is a great semi-auto choice.

 

[peggysue]

ya know you just cant pack a firearm and bring it up to Alaska via car or boat,.

 

[SHR970]

Quote:
My love affair with the 10mm began and ended about 25 years ago with a Colt Delta Elite. I liked the cartridge but after 2,000 rounds that 1911 frame was rattling and the accuracy seemed to fall off.

Dudenal, focus ... You apparently didn't read the OP's post carefully. For the time he'll be up there, his friend will be occupied mostly with construction tasks, not pounding 2K rounds of hot 10mm ammo through a Colt Delta or a Glock 20. Wear and tear issues, therefore, are irrelevant. Not in the game plan. Any shooting in would be limited to the emergency occasion of self-defense. He's not up there to hunt or plink.

Quote:
Given a choice for Alaska? I am going with a S&W Model 29.

Seriously? Aside from being a limited-capacity wheelie, model 29s have acquired a well-know reputation for shaking themselves loose under a sustained diet of magnum loads in well under 400 or 500-rds - thereby needing a return trip to S&W for factory repair. That's much less than the 2K round count you assigned to the DE, and it's certainly not something you'd see with Ruger's Alaskan revolver in .44mag.

Seriously??? The first contradicts the second.


On top of that, let us consider an encounter with ANY bear up there vs. the gun at hand. Big bruins can move PDQ..especially when motivated. The difference between getting 6 rounds off and 10 rounds off is most likely....you get neither.

Real low temps? Someone mentioned them earlier. You are not going to be out pounding nails in -30+ ANYHOW! But in the interest of this discussion... a wheel gun is MORE LIKELY to function than a semi auto.

Next....ERGONOMICS. Are everyones hands large enough to handle a large grip Block in 10MM? NOT LIKELY. You use what you HAVE in a reasonbable caliber that YOU can hit with. When the adrenalin starts pumping, if it dot fit, you won't hit. PERIOD. People with small hands and the big blocks will have major fit issues........ask me how I know THAT. Now add gloves to compound the issue.

Having read the posts, it seems the "leader" of this foray wants commonality with HIS preferred choice in case things go sideways. Personally, I wouldn't swap my good parts for his junk parts in the field. In remote conditions do you want to go looking for a spring that went out there when you tore your gun down? Good luck with that.

I could go on at length on this...so many things wrong with this situation as a whole. Me myself? I would bring my SRH without worry. At least I could share ammo with the guys with the Model 29's. BTW....29's from certain years had issues..so did just about everything else from S&W. That aside; I wouldn't be so fast to deride the choice.

 

[agtman]

Seriously??? The first contradicts the second.

Huh? What contradicts what?

* * * The difference between getting 6 rounds off and 10 rounds off is most likely....you get neither.

It's Alaska, not New York. The G20 is good-to-go with a 15-rd magazine, or three.

 

[Reloadron]

Dudenal, focus ... You apparently didn't read the OP's post carefully. For the time he'll be up there, his friend will be occupied mostly with construction tasks, not pounding 2K rounds of hot 10mm ammo through a Colt Delta or a Glock 20. Wear and tear issues, therefore, are irrelevant. Not in the game plan. Any shooting would be limited to emergency self-defense. He's not up there to hunt or plink.

Quote:
Given a choice for Alaska? I am going with a S&W Model 29.
Seriously? Aside from being a limited-capacity wheelie, model 29s have acquired a well-know reputation for shaking themselves loose under a sustained diet of magnum loads in well under 400 or 500-rds - thereby needing a return trip to S&W for factory repair. That's much less than the 2K round count you assigned to the DE, and it's certainly not something you'd see with Ruger's Alaskan revolver in .44mag.

agtman,
The OP asked a question. I am sorry my reply fell short of your standards but really don't much care. Sorry also you do not approve of the Model 29 but again, I really don't care. I understand that he will not be subjecting the gun to a torture test and again apologize for my poor thinking. I guess we can't all be as bright as you most apparently are.

Ron

 

[agtman]

sorry my reply fell short of your standards but really don't much care. Sorry also you do not approve of the Model 29 but again, I really don't care. I understand that he will not be subjecting the gun to a torture test.

Sorry if I came off harsh, aggravating day.

Anyway, I actually do like the S&W 29s. I had a classic blue 6" 29-2 back in the day. But on the details of the OP's post, we need to be sure we're comparing apples-to-apples under the same conditions.

Frankly, given what the OP stated his friend will be doing up there, I wouldn't be adverse to taking an 8+1 stainless Delta loaded heavy & hot, and keeping it holstered in a center-chest rig while doing the various construction activities. He'll hardly have the time, much less the ammo needed, to shoot it loose.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I have a friend who has the opportunity to go on the trip of a lifetime to the Alaska Bush Country to help build some community buildings (school/churches) for some research teams that will be living way up north for several years.

Now will this "friend" be living there for years? Months? Weeks?

See that's the question. If for years then I can see a Glock 10mm and spare parts (as well as several hundred rounds so one can keep in practice.) Or Ruger .44 backpacker with spare parts and a good amount of ammo.

Months? Weeks? Revolver will do fine plus no spare parts needed. Maybe 50-100 rounds of ammo.

And yes, arctic lubed, no matter what you bring.

Deaf

 

[shootbrownelk]

Put a sling on a Remington 870 with extended mag filled with slugs.

 

[44 AMP]

model 29s have acquired a well-know reputation for shaking themselves loose under a sustained diet of magnum loads in well under 400 or 500-rds -

While model 29s have been surpassed in durability by newer, bigger guns, I think "well under 400-500rounds" is a serious misstatement.

Well known reputation, but I don't think well deserved, or not, at least in the rather small number of rounds that you claim.

I have my father's 29-2, bought new in the late 70s. NOT one of the later guns with the "durability package". While I don't have an exact round count, I know its had over 500 rounds of full house factory ammo fired through it, and about 1200 or so rounds of slightly lower power ammo (1100fps) by me, and its nowhere even close to loose or needing any kind of shop work to tune it up.

I don't care to shoot full power loads for recreation from the model 29, it hurts. I save most of that stuff for my Ruger SuperBlackhawk, or Desert Eagle where it is not only not hurtful, its actually pleasant.

Now, I will agree that S&W has put out some less than stellar M29/629s, particularly during the Bangor Punta years, but ALL model 29s aren't the weak, flimsy things they are made out to be these days.

I hope all Model 29 /629 owners who read this will share their experiences, as I do not believe the "well under 4-500 rounds" part.

As for the limited rounds in a revolver, we're talking about facing a bear, not a bear armed with a high cap pistol. its not a gun fight, and no bear is impressed by how many rounds you carry.

The worst case I can imaging is being taken by complete surprise by a charging bear. I don't realistically see anyone getting off more rounds that HIT VITAL SPOTS than a revolver holds in the likely time available before the bear reaches contact distance.

And, at contact distance, the revolver has a distinct advantage the semi does not, it does not go out of battery and fail to fire when pressed against the bear.

Elmer Keith's advice always made sense to me. He used to say that with any decent pistol (and he meant .38 cal and up) you could survive any bear attack, if you kept your nerve.

Every bear opens its mouth when it attacks. If you keep your nerve, and shoot the bear through the mouth you can break the neck, and survive the attack. Elmer never claimed that you wouldn't get clawed or chawed, only that you would survive, if you kept your nerve.

I've never had, and don't ever hope to have a chance to prove this, but it always made sense to me.

Bear defense is not a gunfight, and the single most important weapon you can carry is AWARENESS, not a gun. That being said, you ARE safer with awareness AND a good gun than with just awareness alone...

 

[bamaranger]

not surprised

Here are some aspects that I have not seen discussed.

-Portability and convenience. While not a prime factor in your bear pistol, it certainly will come into play. The G20 will be flatter and have fewer edges to gouge and prod you as you work. It will ride nicely in a GI style holster or chest rig. It will likely be a tad lighter than a standard .44 Mag, and a good bit lighter than the mammoth Rugers. For it to do you any good.....you have to have it with you.

-Durability. The mag revolvers are fine guns, but they are susceptible to some breakage and or loss of parts. The rear sight is vulnerable to breakage. The ejector rod can get bent, perhaps even unscrewed and lost. The cylinder base pin same.( I have a Ruger Bearcat that came out of Alaska....the base pin was fashioned from a Phillips scredriver shaft!) All the external screws can loosen and get lost. That might result in the loss of the cylinder release latch, or a grip panel. Proper screw drives are needed to tighten same. There are no screws on a G20. Even when field stripped, there are only 3 big pieces to keep up with.

-Ease of shooting. It is likely easier to get a novice to hit with a Glock auto, than for same shooter to get equal results shooting a mag revolver DA. The 10mm is indeed less gun than the .44 (or .41, all up) but that translates into an easier gun to shoot well.

But I am surprised that a pistol is recommended, period. Seems like a short 12 ga pump, perhaps a folder, for easy storeage, with slugs would be high on the list. Would I take a pistol? Yes. Would I want a long gun, and prefer it, and have one in camp on in the vehs, yes. If there really is high bear risk, a lookout/shooter is placed, and he should have a long gun.

Also, +1 to awareness.

 

[agtman]

Elmer Keith's advice always made sense to me. He used to say that with any decent pistol (and he meant .38 cal and up) you could survive any bear attack, if you kept your nerve.

Every bear opens its mouth when it attacks. If you keep your nerve, and shoot the bear through the mouth you can break the neck, and survive the attack. Elmer never claimed that you wouldn't get clawed or chawed, only that you would survive, if you kept your nerve.

Agree with this.

Bear defense is not a gunfight, and the single most important weapon you can carry is AWARENESS, not a gun. That being said, you ARE safer with awareness AND a good gun than with just awareness alone.

Yep, this too.