Odd experience at a training

[JohnKSa]

....there is a lot to watch and keep tabs on when on line with life fire. it may be just a simple case of needing to keep apples and oranges separated with separate classes or training.

Excellent observation. If an instructor needs to have separate classes to simplify his job, then that should be clearly noted in the materials which should specify which type of class is being held on a particular date so students don't sign up for an autopistol class with a revolver, or vice versa.

In your example, for instance, the course materials should clearly state that the class applies only to vehicles with two axles and also that it doesn't apply to vehicles with less than 2 wheels per axle.

Also, while I could see separating classes by weapon type for the reasons you provide, I don't see how it makes sense to allow someone to continue with the class with their weapon but handicap them by preventing them from operating their firearm as they normally would. That is, how does keeping a student from using moon clips while still allowing them to use their revolver simplify the instructor's job in any way?

In your example, for instance, it might make sense to keep the person from taking the class with their semi, but it wouldn't make sense to let them take the class with their semi but then prevent them from ever turning left during the class.

Finally, if the instructor had a constructive reason for the limitation, that reason should have been provided promptly when the question was asked.

 

[tangolima]

Perhaps the instructor himself is not proficient with speed loader or moon clip. He has nothing to offer to his students. Letting it continue may lead to the situation equivalent to the insane running the asylum. The student somehow becomes the instructor. I have seen that before in other sorts of trainings.

I can see why the instructor did what he did. He could have specified that in the class materials. Maybe he hadn't thought of it. Now he probably will update his class descriptions.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[jar]

Perhaps the instructor himself is not proficient with speed loader or moon clip. He has nothing to offer to his students. Letting it continue may lead to the situation equivalent to the insane running the asylum. The student somehow becomes the instructor. I have seen that before in other sorts of trainings.

I can see why the instructor did what he did. He could have specified that in the class materials. Maybe he hadn't thought of it. Now he probably will update his class descriptions.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

The teacher learning from the student is a far far far cry from the insane running the asylum; and in fact a teacher that is not just willing but rather actively seeking to learn from the students needs to find a different job.

Since it had been about 20 years since I'd even fired one of my handguns I made sure to read the Texas course of fire for the practical range part of the LTC licensing process and it was oriented towards 5 round sequences. There was only one segment that would require a reload and it was at the 3 yard portion which is when time really might be critical. However even that segment allowed so much time that for the test a reload, even if done without a speed loader it would not be an issue even as rusty as I was. I was planning on using my Detective Special and so brought a box of ammo and four HKS speed loaders, two actual DS and the other two for my K frame 19.

Realistically I found that I had more than enough time to reload used speed loaders while the instructions were given for each stage. What I did was shoot five and dump all six into a plastic box I had brought. It was an artificial break point but I'd always practiced doing reloads whenever there was a break rather than only when empty and I'd recover the unused rounds after the test finished.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

being the devils advocate as a life longer instructor....there is a lot to watch and keep tabs on when on line with life fire. it may be just a simple case of needing to keep apples and oranges separated with separate classes or training.

I can see why the instructor did what he did. He could have specified that in the class materials. Maybe he hadn't thought of it. Now he probably will update his class descriptions.

However, in this case the instructor didn't immediately inform the student that he wouldn't be allowed to use speedloaders -- the OP reported that the ban wasn't imposed until hours into the class. Mid-way through a class isn't (IMHO) the appropriate time for a lead instructor to think about revising the equipment requirements for his class. He could have allowed the OP to continue, and then revised his equipment advisory for future classes.

 

[reynolds357]

Just finished a local self defense single day pistol training. It was a small class of 7 people. My self and my brother both attended the class. There was a main trainer and he had an assistant.

Before attending the class I looked up what guns are appropriate for the class. The rules basically said no rimfire and no Single action revolvers. So I brought my S&W 627 (8 shot revolver) and a few speed loaders and some rounds pre-loaded into moon clips.

When we get to the training I am not surprised to mostly see double stack striker fire pistols and only my self with a revolver. Long story short, after a couple hours I was no longer allowed to use the speed loaders or my moon clips and had to load the rounds by hand (for the last 90 min) while every body else still got to use magazines.

After words I stayed late to ask what the reasoning behind it was and the trainer would not give me an answer and just walked away. His assistant did talk to me and told me that I did pretty well and was better with my speed loaders (before the teacher banned them) than many students where with the magazines. I was a little upset but feel that I kept it to my self pretty well.

Any way it’s still bothering me a little. What could the reason for the trainer doing this be? Is it possible that he was trying to help me and I just took it the wrong way? I want to believe that!

Sorry for the rant!

As a retired SWAT training officer, who dealt with a lot of instructors, I can with 99.9% confidence GYARANTEE you that in some way you put boo boos on the instructors fragile ego.

 

[reynolds357]

I don't disagree the instructor is at fault for either not being clear when the class requirements were listed, or in making a stupid decision because a student using a revolver might be making other students 'feel uncomfortable' because of the comparative performance 'gap'.

However, even LE training units have occasionally learned the hard way that sometimes the posted class curriculum and requirements involved for outside training might not contain all critical information necessary. Sometimes a phone call (or email) has resulted in getting some helpful additional info ... which ought to have been included in the class info from the get go.

As far as a revolver shooter making some other students feel less capable? That was a great opportunity for the instructor to use as a teaching moment. Gear can only take you so far, and then its the gear user that becomes critical.

Like the time we went to a SWAT team building clearing contest and mopped up. The rules did not state what weapons could not be used. It was stated there were no hostages, only perps and friendlies. We brought only our Benelli M4 with #2 shot. 1 shot would score the required 2 to center mass one to head. To no avail, they tried to make the rule mid competition, but we would not comply. Only written rule was "no buckshot in tire house". Well #2 ain't buckshot.

 

[DT Guy]

Do you carry your revolver with loose rounds? If not, what you did wasn't training; it was practicing a skill you'll only ever use at a range.

Glad you got the refund; instructors all have strong and weak areas, but some are heavy on the weak...

Larry

 

[jar]

Do you carry your revolver with loose rounds? If not, what you did wasn't training; it was practicing a skill you'll only ever use at a range.

Glad you got the refund; instructors all have strong and weak areas, but some are heavy on the weak...

Larry

At times.

 

[TunnelRat]

The instructor is a butt munching Fudd.

A fudd generally wouldn’t have an issue with a revolver being used, at least as I understand the use of the term.

 

[Mannlicher]

it's almost like the OP caught a class with an instructor that was out of his comfort zone.

 

[fastbolt]

Glad (albeit a little surprised) that you and your brother received a refund.

It wouldn't be surprising the instructor was, indeed, outside his comfort and experience zone. It happens.

It used to be that LE instructors were well versed and experienced in working with folks using both revolvers and pistols. Sometimes it was as simple as knowing how to adjust round counts for shot strings and total scoring for 5/6rd revolver users in courses-of-fire where others were using higher capacity pistols. Other times it was making sure the revolver shooters weren't standing so their revolvers ended up sweeping others (if standing in a 'line'). Nothing difficult.

In the waning days of revolver courses instructors had to be familiar with shooters reloading from speedloaders, speedstrips, using dump pouches, single or double (top off) belt loops, or even loose rounds from pockets (sometimes saved for a worse-case scenario when speedloaders might be exhausted earlier in the course-of-fire).

I think the last LE class where I saw someone show up with a duty revolver was at the beginning of the 2000's, and it was a "tactical" shooting class. That guy worked for a medium-sized PD. The other cops stopped chiding him for carrying a large frame revolver once he demonstrated he could shoot and reload well enough to run at least with the better half of the folks in the class during all the ranges.

The days of the revolver being a mainstream duty weapon may have come and gone, granted, but the sales of DA revolvers (especially snub revolvers) are still doing respectably well, and that's a market segment you'd think commercial self-defense instructors might consider worth exploring and supporting.

 

[stuckinthe60s]

funny you say that. when revolvers were the mainstay, revolver shooters complained about brass bouncing off of them on line from semi shooters. lol.
what comes around, goes around.

 

[bamaranger]

Fudd's

How quickly some get to the us v. them mentality. I'd politely remind all of the Ben Franklin quote regards sticking together or hanging together.

I cannot speak for the mindset of the instructor in question. But.....

I would think here is some merit in learning to "tactically reload" a revolver w/ loose rounds to bring the cylinder all up. Back in the day, we carried both speed loaders and 2x2 pouches for that very reason. If a cylinder was partially expended, and there was a lull in the action (went the theory) the spent cases were thumbnailed out and replaced with live ammo as necessary. We also practiced loading and indexing just two rounds.

I've never worked with moon clips. I suppose a partially spent moon clip could be ejected/ retained and a full moon clip inserted as is done with a magazine in auto pistols for a tactical reload. One is then carrying about a partial moon clip which would have to be indexed to allow immediate use. Retaining spent cases seems foolish to me, and leaving live ammo behind for the sake of a full cylinder seems foolish as well. (assuminig a partial moon is ejected and not retained, and a fresh moon inserted).

Call me a Fudd, but my train of thought is similar to driving a car. If one can drive, they should be able to drive both an automatic and manual transmission. If one is a revolver shooter than one should be able to manage clips, speed loaders and loose (2x2 and the like) rounds.

 

[TunnelRat]

How quickly some get to the us v. them mentality. I'd politely remind all of the Ben Franklin quote regards sticking together or hanging together.

When people really aren't on your side, or aren't willing or able to communicate to you then really it doesn't matter if you hang separately or together.

Call me a Fudd, but my train of thought is similar to driving a car. If one can drive, they should be able to drive both an automatic and manual transmission. If one is a revolver shooter than one should be able to manage clips, speed loaders and loose (2x2 and the like) rounds.

I guess you missed the part where the instructor flat out refused to explain the why, even after the class. Training through adversity is one thing. Allowing someone to use a tool, then telling them partway through a class that they can no longer use the tool and not explaining to them the why isn't teaching. It seems bizarrely punitive. I don't know an instructor that would call that meaningful instruction. If there is a reason, give it during the class. In this case the instructor refused to do that even after the class.

I don't think in this case you're a fudd, but if your actions were the same as the instructor here I wouldn't consider you a good teacher.

 

[Jim Watson]

I suppose a partially spent moon clip could be ejected/ retained and a full moon clip inserted as is done with a magazine in auto pistols for a tactical reload. One is then carrying about a partial moon clip which would have to be indexed to allow immediate use.

That doesn't work very well. Cramming expanded fired cases in that partial moon clip back in the cylinder is a tedious chore. I do not recall successfully accomplishing it, but I guess you would have to try if the zombies were bad.

Back when IDPA could require a Tac Load, I kept some of those little two shot clips and a few Auto Rims handy for the occasion.

 

[jar]

That doesn't work very well. Cramming expanded fired cases in that partial moon clip back in the cylinder is a tedious chore. I do not recall successfully accomplishing it, but I guess you would have to try if the zombies were bad.

Back when IDPA could require a Tac Load, I kept some of those little two shot clips and a few Auto Rims handy for the occasion.

Yup. A dump pouch with a few 45AR was often my fall back plan 'D' solution. Do still love my S&W Brazillian Contract 45s and they are in the quick access safe next to the bed with a half dozen filled moon clips.

Actually I was doing inventory the other day and found I still have a couple boxes of 230 45AR squirreled away.

 

[bamaranger]

missing

I didn't miss anything. I dislike labeling other segments of the shooting community and the divisions created by such labels in our sport whatever the context. "Fudds" and another derogatory phrase was used in another post in this thread and I reused the term, in hindsight perhaps not the best idea. I'm not the moderator, I likely should have just kept my digital mouth shut.

I agree that the instructor owed the revolver guy an explanation. I would also note that approaching the instructor after the event, rather than challenging or questioning him in front of the group was very tactful (not tactical ) . Whatever logic the leader may have had could certainly have been explained then. I'm pleased to hear the OP got a refund. As the story is relayed, the instructor sounds incompetent.

I also suspected that trying to stuff a partially expended moon clip in an empty revolver would be tedious. Relying solely on moon clips to charge a revolver seems unsound, hence my comments about single rounds and 2x2 loads. I'll add that in the few years I dabbled in informal IDPA, often at our little shoots, the guy to beat was a revolver shooter, and frequently, the most accurate shooter of the day was another guy with a M10 .38.

 

[Wag]

Last CCW class I did was with a new instructor who insisted on "training" everyone. It was actually quite well done.

One guy was using a wheel gun and was obviously a pretty new shooter with a relatively new gun. Add that to the nervousness of shooting while instructors and ten other students were watching and it was, well, tedious. Nobody complained though. We just watched and the guy kept working his way through it. He didn't have speed loaders so he was dumping a handful of rounds on the table and loading them all one by one.

By the end of the day, the guy was actually pretty good at it and was loading and shooting about three times faster than he had started. I was impressed.

He did well and had every reason to be happy about it although he did say that he was going to go get an auto loader pistol.

Nobody complained or criticized except himself.

--Wag--

 

[fastbolt]

... I dislike labeling other segments of the shooting community and the divisions created by such labels in our sport whatever the context.

...I'll add that in the few years I dabbled in informal IDPA, often at our little shoots, the guy to beat was a revolver shooter, and frequently, the most accurate shooter of the day was another guy with a M10 .38.

Indeed.

I had an interesting conversation the other day, with a retired Marine Gunny (mid 40's, FWIW).

We were talking about CCW options and choices, and he mentioned that while he was a longtime pistol shooter, from his service career, he actually favored a revolver for serious personal use. He'd grown up using a DA revolver, and still preferred shooting one. He reflected that someone did have to have a frank assessment and understanding of their handgunning skills, and that they could make the optimal use of the inherently more limited round capacity of a revolver.

Never knew that about him.

 

[MarkCO]

Very sad what happened to the OP, and sadder that there was not a reasonable explanation given.

I've had revolver shooters in my classes, I put them on the left side if right handed to afford a larger area of safe muzzle angle, and let them go at it. Totally unacceptable that an instructor would not let someone train with appropriate gear, and if needed, to provide the proper safety protocols to allow same.

I did have a retired LEO come to class in mid 2020. Range was closed for CV and he needed to renew his LEOSA permit. He carried 2 J-frames. That was a first, but we made it work. At 70ish, he could still run all of the drills well under the time limits. Even the 10 round drills, he did great beating out some younger folks with wonder 9s.