NYPD and no more revolvers

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I have deleted a post implying the police want semis for illegal actions. Not acceptable for us. Also, the reply to it.

As far as the cops not being able to shoot semis well, the X ring etc, blah, blah.

I shoot with a good number of officers. The ones who practice shoot quickly and accurately. An old geezer with a revolver or semi that they don't practice with, probably isn't any good. Isn't that an insight.

 

[K_Mac]

Any old cantankerous today with a trusted .38 or .357 is a worse foe to face than any young whippersnapper with his new wonder 9 Block. Get over it, face the facts, revolvers are better than autos and they always have been and always will be.

I'm guessing that is just sarcasm to stir the pot M12. I am a member of the old and cantankerous fraternity who shoots with other members and young bucks alike. Most would be formidable foes with either a revolver or pistol. Revolvers don't get much love though. I guess we didn't get the memo.

 

[Sequins]

All my semi autos are made by jenner and wrapped in duck tape, my body and spirit are ready!

 

[OldMarksman]

How many gunfights you been in?

How is that relevant to the discussion?

 

[Ibmikey]

I began my LE career with a self purchased Mod 19, 4” and ended it thirty years later with a dept. purchased Glock 23. I was responsible for the firearms program and purchasing of weapons and supplies. When I took over the program we had one box of 158 gr LRN on the shelf, when I retired we were purchasing 100,000 rounds of ammunition for training purposes. Some officers were hesitant about the transition to the semi auto but all successfully made the change. Officers were required to complete successfully the training program set forth each quarter, however an officer could shoot each range day if desired. As far as accuracy I was on the pistol team with my Model 19 and thirty years later could still hit a bowling pin at 100 yards offhand with my Glock so the weapons were comparable in that area. Most police targets are much closer and a proficient officer should score hits even under stress.

 

[briandg]

maybe not necessary to say, but my shooting began with a single shot bb gun, my first pistol was a single shot bb gun, my first real gun was a semiauto ruger, and after that, I became proficient with a smith k frame.

I can shoot my revolver as well as my glock, and I feel that I work with my glock far better than I would if I had never learned how to shoot DA.

There's the rhythm and feeling and follow through that come with a revolver that you learn, and it can be ported into a semiauto.

I don't do well at all with rapid fire when I start reaching for speed, I'm still working on the last shot when I have to fire the next, if that makes sense.

Slowing down a hair allows the entire neural system to reset to base and you are firing from the same condition as you did with the first round.

The guys who have mastered speed and accuracy have just trained themselves to the point that they are running on high speed neural processing, and to a certain extent, bypassing it with muscle memory. Not everyone can do that, I sure can't. I don't consider myself fast, but I am quick. Years ago, I realized that my biggest problem was that I got the gun on target slowly, bobbing back and forth to find it. I taught myself that the tenth of a second saved getting the gun out of the holster and up at high speed cost me at least a second or two getting it zoned in where it belonged.

 

[briandg]

I wish that I could have one of those retired revolvers, a smith, of course. That K frame .38 is the iconic police gun. Funny, I don't like the colts.

 

[Nanuk]

How is that relevant to the discussion?

He made this statement.

In a gunfight no one cares about the ten ring. If you're hitting the X you're shooting too slow. Survival in a gunfight comes down to speed, both speed of shooting and speed of identifying and processing the threat; good enough accuracy, and a will to win. A little luck never hurts either.

I was attempting to discern if it was a qualified opinion or an unqualified opinion. I have no use for unqualified opinions.

Having survived more than one visit to the two way range I learned a few things, one is that misses do not count. So his cavalier attitude about marksmanship is irrelevant if all he ahas ever done is read about it or watch videos.

It may be that X ring shot that enables you to stop the threat. I have competed for decades as well, no body accidentally hits the X ring consistently.

 

[shafter]

I'll put it like this. All the accuracy in the world doesn't matter if they other person shoots or stabs you first. On the flip side, all the speed in the world doesn't matter either if you can't hit the target. Accuracy does matter obviously, and so does speed, however, accuracy costs speed, and speed costs accuracy. The key is to find the right balance between the two and knowing when to prioritize each.

Both revolvers and semiautos are capable of speed and accuracy. My preference is to not be the first to run out of ammo. Other people can carry whatever they like.

 

[Brit]

Using NYPD as a yardstick, reference handguns is a joke!

The stupid bosses (Non-Police) were told safety is a 12lb trigger. My early days in IPSC had me shooting a 1913 Colt 45 1911. Accurised by Al Dinan.

It had a perfect, crisp, 3 lb release. The most accurate Pistol I had ever owned, or shot.

Expecting a young Police Officer (Female) or small Male, slender, not a Tarzan like build, to accurately hit with a 12lb Glock trigger, under the stress of an armed encounter, is a stretch.

The factory trigger at around 5 and a half pounds, is good.

Both eyes open, with good night sights, it is easier to register good hits.

A mod. 65 S&W Revolver, carrying .38 Special Semi-Wadcutter lead hollow points. Good Revolver, good ammo. Good combo. But that era has gone.

 

[OldMarksman]

I was attempting to discern if it was a qualified opinion or an unqualified opinion. I have no use for unqualified opinions.

Ascertaining how many "gunfights" one has "been in" cannot lead on to a meaningful assessment on that subject.

 

[Fishbed77]

While some of what you say is true, still hard to beat the incredible reliability of the revolver.

Not as hard as you think.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/revolver-accuracy-reliability/

When a revolver malfunctions, it is typically out of the fight. When a semi-auto malfunctions, remedial action can almost always bring it back into action.

Of course the merits of one versus the other can be argued ad infinitum, but history has pretty much resolved which is the more effective weapon.

 

[458winshooter]

Gen 4's

It would seem to me that they will be retiring a lot of other semi-autos as well if Gen 4's are the only Glocks that are to be used.I would think they would have gathered many older Glocks in the past several years.

 

[Nanuk]

Ascertaining how many "gunfights" one has "been in" cannot lead on to a meaningful assessment on that subject.

Maybe, maybe not. But if someone has never, ever been there then their opinion on what works in that situation is worth very little. To say that the ability to place shots does not count (to paraphrase) is proof enough, "Good enough" only counts in the movies where the fights are choreographed.

 

[Nanuk]

When a revolver malfunctions, it is typically out of the fight. When a semi-auto malfunctions, remedial action can almost always bring it back into action.

Are thinking of a revolver malfunction or an ammo malfunction? Revolver malfunctions are few and far between.

Of course the merits of one versus the other can be argued ad infinitum, but history has pretty much resolved which is the more effective weapon.

I am effective with either, these days I generally choose a 357 or 44 mag to carry due to the terminal effect. Fantasy scenarios aside, revolvers properly run can solve just about any situation in the civilian world. Proper tactics.

I have carried each into harms way for decades.

 

[Roamin_Wade]

They can make them use semi-auto’s on their hips but I’m almost certain they aren’t using LCP’s, and the like, as back-ups on their ankle. I sell guns for a living at an FFA store and I always steer the ladies to the revolver display cabinet. Reason being is this...they won’t be using it to go into “combat”, they will simply be getting them and their family out of a bad situation and nothing does that more simply than a revolver. Plus, even the cheapest made revolver (Charter Arms, etc.) is more reliable than any Sig, Glock or Colt is. Yes, even the venerable 1911 will malfunction or be too complicated to use in a dynamic situation.

If you don’t mind, I’m new in here and I can’t find the “make a new post” button. How do I make a new post? Please and thank you! I’m a bit wore out on FB so I’m going to be in this group. Way more civil and way more good information.

 

[OldMarksman]

But if someone has never, ever been there then their opinion on what works in that situation is worth very little.

So, you are contending that the opinions of the vast majority of law enforcement officers and combat shooting instructors is worth very little.

....and by extension, that if someone happens to have been involved in an armed confrontation, he or she somehow has a more valuable opinion.

Ludicrous.

There are far too many variables in armed encounters for a few actual encounters to teach much at all.

The same holds true for air combat, for handling nuclear power system malfunctions properly, for reacting to emergencies in the piloting of an aircraft, and to a host of other things.

 

[K_Mac]

Maybe, maybe not. But if someone has never, ever been there then their opinion on what works in that situation is worth very little. To say that the ability to place shots does not count (to paraphrase) is proof enough, "Good enough" only counts in the movies where the fights are choreographed.

Baloney! Good enough as related to combat accuracy is a reasonable objective. My goal is to quickly put multiple rounds on target when practicing for self defense. A 6" group on target is good enough. I adjust speed and distance accordingly.

Nanuk, your experience gives you a different perspective, and I respect and value your input. Lack of experience in combat does not necessarily mean others have nothing to add to this conversation though. The line between confident and arrogant is very thin...

 

[Nanuk]

So, you are contending that the opinions of the vast majority of law enforcement officers and combat shooting instructors is worth very little.

....and by extension, that if someone happens to have been involved in an armed confrontation, he or she somehow has a more valuable opinion.

Ludicrous.

There are far too many variables in armed encounters for a few actual encounters to teach much at all.

The same holds true for air combat, for handling nuclear power system malfunctions properly, for reacting to emergencies in the piloting of an aircraft, and to a host of other things.
OldMarksman is offline Report Post Quick reply to this message

You sure are going to a lot of trouble calling me out for calling someone else out.

And yes, If you have never been in a fight how do you know that your method will allow you to prevail? Understanding that every fight is different of course but experience with training counts for more than academics when it comes to fighting, whether it is a gun fight or a fist fight. Don't believe me, watch some good street fighters in action.

 

[OldMarksman]

And yes, If you have never been in a fight how do you know that your method will allow you to prevail?

Having been in one fight, or even in several , is unlikely to give you such knowledge.

There are far too many variables, and far to many permutations of same. You need experience in numerous different scenarios. It is impossible to gain that experience in gunfighting.

Or in landing an airplane in crosswinds in the Andes once or twice, or in the turbulence form a large aircraft, or in reading to clear air turbulence or wind shear.

Or in engaging in one or two air to air combat encounters.

How? Via simulation, in dozens of different, realistic scenarios involving the unexpected.

That no only provides relevant experience and an ability tor react, but it is also used to develop and evaluate tactics.

And in the case of combat aircraft, to establish the operational requirements in the first place.