Non Lethal Options

[allaroundhunter]

I would like to obtain a Non-lethal, i.e., rubber bullits, to protect my animals and my home. I do not want to kill any animals or any people. If that qualifies me as a wimp, so be it. The question is, do these types of rounds exist for retail purchase, and are they compatible with a conventional shotgun??

I also forgot to add; We have encounters with wild dogs quite often on the farm. We originally tried the rubber buckshot method, but that did not work. They would run away, and then come back within a few minutes. Pepper spray is not an option because it requires us to get far too close to these (very aggressive) dogs. No, I do not enjoy killing dogs, but it is the best thing for us (my family) to do and it is the only viable option that we have.

 

[SouthernMarine]

I also forgot to add; We have encounters with wild dogs quite often on the farm. We originally tried the rubber buckshot method, but that did not work. They would run away, and then come back within a few minutes. Pepper spray is not an option because it requires us to get far too close to these (very aggressive) dogs. No, I do not enjoy killing dogs, but it is the best thing for us (my family) to do and it is the only viable option that we have.

In the case of feral animals, especially on a farm where they could harm your livestock, I would recommend lethal force as less-lethal methods will only deter them for a short time. I know you may not like to kill dogs but in this case you need to grow an "us or them" mentality.

Sent from my LGL75C using Tapatalk 2

 

[hso]

As pointed out there are no "non-lethal" defensive tool, just less-lethal.

It is important to realize that it is possible, even if unlikely, for someone to die from mace, OC spray or Taser so the use of such defensive tools need to be justified defensively.

I carry Freeze+P as well as other options outside the OPs scope in this thread.

 

[Strafer Gott]

So how will you feel if the dog pack kills the deacon's prize red heifer, or your mom's pet cat, or your little brother? Kill them. Don't brag and don't rag. Just look at it as another unpleasant but necessary chore. Animal control in rural settings isn't handled very well. Contact your local game and fish or state police if you think it's required.

 

[45YearsShooting]

The police don't just carry guns. They carry pepper spray and a baton. They understand (and are trained) that different situations require different measures of force. So should everyone who carries a gun.

Having a gun as your ONLY defensive weapon increases the likelihood it may be used in a situation where a non-lethal weapon would be a better choice. For this reason, I also carry Fox Labs pepper spray in a quick-draw holster. I get the narrow stream nozzle, for longer distance and better performance in wind. However, it's harder to hit your target with it. Pepper spray PRACTICE is also necessary. You don't carry a gun without practicing with it. The same logic should apply to pepper spray.

 

[Fishing_Cabin]

Just a few thoughts...

OC--- Its affect varies depending on the person. Some people are not affected in a strong way with OC and may continue to fight even with a proper application of OC. A large number of people will be affected by OC though, and its generally the main less-lethal that I recomend to people. The resulting discomfort caused by OC takes time to go away, and at least when I have had OC applied to myself in training, it takes probably 20-30 minutes to get back to some what normal conditions, and during the 20-30 minutes I had to do alot of irragating my eyes with cool water and using baby shampoo as well on the areas it contacted my skin. My sensations included: intense pain in my eyes to the point of barely being able to see while squinting, my face felt like I shoved it ina 400 degree oven and slammed the door, and I had a level of breathing difficulty, though as part of the test also, I had to fight through an obsticle course. Kinda hard to do when your mostly blinded, lol.

TASER--- TASER is one brand of ECD, and it has its own short comings as well. First of all, its important to note that depending on version a ECD can have either a 5 second time duration, and others have a 30 second time duration. Also, for the ECD to have a proper affect of disabling a threat, it needs to have both of the probes into the skin. Such things as heavy clothing can reduce, or stop the ECD from doing its job properly. It is also a single shot, though there are bulky multi shot models slowly coming out. Once the ECD is applied, it can be re-applied until the battery weakens. Also, the TASER brand ECD's I have been around have the ability to do a drive stun as well. Also, the TASER brand ECD's do have a memory and it can be downloaded by TASER if needed for a trial. I believe the memory is rather limited to how many times it has been discharged (applied). As to what happens from my experience. It was rather minor, almost no pain, just felt like 99.9 percent of my mucsles felt like they locked up. At the end of the 5 seconds there was no pain. Actually it kinda felt like I was tickled in a way really. After the end of the 5 seconds I was instantly able to return to a fight if I had needed.

My personal views--- I feel that OC is the better option for most everyone who desires a less-lethal option. Thats because that the OC takes a longer time to wear off, it allows it to be used with multiple attackers and also allows the person defending theirself to run away and seek safety. With an ECD either you have to stay some where close by so the leads will deliver current from the ECD to the probes, and then its only for 5 or 30 seconds an application. Also, with an ECD, there is a question of who will eventually remove the probes, as well as if you apply an ECD and then run, whatcha gonna do when the leads run out during the 5 to 30 seconds of time it delivers the shock? If a person uses repeated applications of an ECD I am unsure how it would look in front of a jury. The length of the leads, its basically a one-cartridge per attacker and the limited duration of the ECD is why I do not recommend an ECD. The only good point I see toward an ECD is that there is not the decontamination thats required with OC when the law enforcement and medics arrive.

Though I have access to both OC and ECD, I do choose not to carry either. Just my personal view.

 

[Newton24b]

according to an article in a magazine this year..

30-40 percent of all people are born with a genetic issue that makes them immune to pepper spray.

anyone can build up a tolerance to pepper spray by adjusting their diet.

so basically right off the bat, pepper spray becomes useless on at least 30-40 percent of the population. and the rest of us have different resistance to it depending on how much chilli pepper weeat everyday.
and at the same time, drugs and booze, and medical conditions make the effects of pepper spray different on everyone. same goes forelectrical devices.

its somewhat hard to be born with any resistance to lead.

 

[ClydeFrog]

Taser C2, application(s)...

I'm not a sworn LE officer, lawyer(with a JD) or own a C2 Taser; but to my knowledge, the C2 or private citizen version has a more powerful EDW(electric discharge weapon) than the LE/military only X26, X2, X3 Tasers.
The C2s also dispurse a large burst of tiny particles that allow the LE officers who respond to quickly ID the subject(s) who attacked you.
Taser training & policy is for a citizen to deploy a C2 then flee to a safe place if possible. To my knowledge, you can't repeatedly shoot a C2 or EDW because there is only one charge.
I also read that if you are cleared by your local PD or DA's office, Taser will send you a brand new C2 Taser with the legal documents(statements, police reports, etc). That seems fair.
As for firearms & lethal force, I'd only draw and/or fire my concealed firearm in a lethal force event. To carry "rubber bullets", blanks or to "scare" people is not my plan. Some LE agencies & security firms mandate a "shoot to wound" or "fire warning shots" but I disagree with this concept.
My state's Div of Licensing also requires that firearms only be used to defend yourself(the license holder) or others if they are in danger of a violent crime(rape, murder, armed robbery, arson, etc).
When firearms are deployed, you should be fully ready & able to use lethal for e if needed. If you can't use lethal force or honestly feel you have reservations about it, DO NOT carry a loaded firearm.

Clyde

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Got a reference to a real source for the 30% figure. The journal studies I've seen say it is abou 85-90% effective.

 

[drcook]

Not being a smart a** but the below pic is the 1st level of non-lethal deterrent within the home and when I go walking in the park. The one with the blue collar now weighs 120 the other 110.

When I was younger, I helped train protection dogs. The doberman I had back then was almost as big as the ones I have now. He stopped a couple issues simply by sticking his head out the front door and announcing his presence. We trained them to go for the hand with a weapon first (if there was one) and then a bite to the groin. Because we go camping and take them, I didn't do any training with these guys. They are crosses between Rhodesian Ridgebacks and Dobermans and are fearless when need be and gentle the rest of the time.

I walk these guys out front and on the road and let them be seen. Our immediate neighborhood has my dogs, one across the street as big as mine and a couple smaller ones. None of the neighborhood dogs are mean (not even mine are mean and will play with the neighbors and strange children) but none will let strangers enter the house without being let in.

I do think pepper spray is a viable option though and thank the ones that brought it up for reminding me that I need to go buy a couple for the family.

 

[seeker_two]

I like OC spray for dealing with hostile animals (not just dogs...had to use it on an opossum once when I didn't have a gun handy). Often, spraying a "line" b/t you & the animal is enough to turn them away. When it isn't, spraying their muzzle changes their mind.

As a former TYC (TX youth prison) employee, I had been sprayed in training. It was distracting, but I could still function well enough to fight. Some others fell down & couldn't function at all. This experience taught me that, if you use OC on a human, be prepared to follow it with another technique to defend yourself (strikes, kicks, blunt force, etc.)

 

[ole]

Hey all,

I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have a comment and a question. I'll start with the question:

I have a GP100 .357 which I keep for home defense purposes. Does anybody have any experience with effective non-lethal rounds in a .357 or .38 spl? Rubber bullets, etc.... If any truly effective non-lethal rounds exist, it would be my preference to use them.

Comment:

In life I'm a practicing attorney. The ability to use lethal force varies from state to state, as many have commented. But please also know that statutes (which can be difficult to understand for even someone trained to do so) only tell part of the story. Other things to consider include case law interpreting those statutes and the discretion of the prosecuting authority. I only say this because I saw some good-natured but perhaps misguided comments on the ability to use lethal force, and I don't want any of you folks getting in trouble, especially in situations involving self-defense.

Thanks,

Ole

 

[JN01]

No such thing as "non-lethal" bullets. Rubber bullets may be less likely to produce a fatal would, but they still can. Regardless of what it is loaded with, your gun is considered deadly force.

The question you need to ask is if you are faced with a situation where deadly force is warranted, are you willing and capable of possibly killing your assailant? If not, you may want to re-think carrying a lethal weapon.

 

[2damnold4this]

Here is a study on the effectiveness and potential danger of pepper spray.

 

[North East Redneck]

Sadly, some people in certain states are not allowed to carry a handgun. Through no fault of their own, they are restricted by local law enforcement from the right to protect themselves. In such cases I would strongly advocate training with and carrying at all times some form of pepper spray/tear gas. Where I live, people may own handguns and yet be prohibited from carrying them. Depends on what town you reside in and if the Chief LEO wants to issue a non restricted license.
In a situation where a person may need to defend themselves, I would rather have a can of spray, knife or bat than nothing. Certainly a firearm is better. But even with the revolver, I like knowing that the spray is in my pocket.

 

[shortwave]

Sadly, some people in certain states are not allowed to carry a handgun. Through no fault of their own, they are restricted by local law enforcement from the right to protect themselves.

Sounds like these people need to get involved to oust the anti gun politicians they've elected into office.

 

[Corrections Cop]

Surprised no one has posted this for encounters outside the home.

This is what I go by in judging a situation.

[/IMG]

 

[MLeake]

It's useful for perspective, but not directly applicable to non-LEO.

(Same continuum they used for training Navy security forces in the early 90's, by the way.)

 

[allaroundhunter]

For police officers, that use of force continuum is applicable, but as Mike said, it is not as useful for civilians.

That continuum is most applicable when affecting an arrest. Civilians rarely make arrests and as a result "soft techniques" are not useful (with the exception of pepper spray).

We as civilians should not be involved in a physical confrontation with another unless it was brought on by an aggressor in which case we should immediately skip level 3 and move to level 4 (which is where I would include pepper spray) or 5.

 

[Corrections Cop]

The point I was trying to make was that with proper training you should know when or when no to shoot. With the force continuum as a guide you can better understand when and when not to shoot. If you can end a confrontation by words or just by walking away you should. Deadly force should only be used as a last resort instead of the first resort.