Non Lethal Options

[markj]

I know the oriental art of run foo...... avoid it and dont worry bout it, if in need skip the shower for a few days, that always works for me....

In this day and age do people still fisticuff it? I doubt it, most pull and shoot. so best to just be nice as pie, smile a lot, be friendly to one and all. Offer to help when needed, that always throws them off....

 

[dayman]

I'm not a big fan of non lethal weapons, though I agree 100% that most altercations don't need to end with gunshots.

To stay out of trouble I tend to rely heavily on my manners, my physique, my beard, my tattoos, and my general lack of things worth stealing

But in all seriousness, slipping a class on deescalation techniques in between gun classes is probably a good idea. Maybe a few unarmed self defense classes too - Personally I find sparing a far more fun method of keeping the belly at bay than running

The problem that seems to exist with less lethal weapons is that they seem to mostly rely on pain. And as the majority of violent crimes these days are committed by people abusing some sort of substance, they may not react to pain the way we would hope.

 

[Pistolgripshotty]

Ok this is all I'm saying...when SHTF in a life or death situation (which happens somewhere everyday in this world) its either YOU or the OTHER guy (i.e. bad guy). I mean if someone were to break in your home or stick you up at the ATM, you guys mean to tell me that your going to be polite and offer them a glass of water and a turkey sandwich and say; Hey thanks for stopping by and robbing me!!!!

 

[K_Mac]

Ok this is all I'm saying...when SHTF in a life or death situation (which happens somewhere everyday in this world) its either YOU or the OTHER guy (i.e. bad guy). I mean if someone were to break in your home or stick you up at the ATM, you guys mean to tell me that your going to be polite and offer them a glass of water and a turkey sandwich and say; Hey thanks for stopping by and robbing me!!!!

Really?! This is your response to a discussion of non-lethal force? As Glenn said, this is the type of rhetoric that adds fuel to the antigun machine.

 

[Rovert]

@Rovert, I apologize for revisiting the law thing again, but I think that @allaroundhunter's statement requires a response.

No worries. I very much agree with your statements, and so would a Prosecutor. There's obviously so much disinformation and subjective opinion that it helps clear up the gray area whenever possible. I think if 'allaroundhunter' presented his questions to those lawyer friends of his with as much hyperbole and as obliquely as he did here, it's no surprise he got the answer that he did. One can always engineer a set of questions to arrive at a preordained conclusion. Ask any political pollster.

Fellas, please don't think that just because you may have Castle Doctrine or even Stand-Your-Ground laws that it's a magic shield. I'm not suggesting that any of you lack self control, I'm only suggesting that it's always better to know the law and understand what's at stake the moment you decide to pull the trigger. A good Use Of Force class helps sift out the testosterone from the truth. Hence, my question about options that are between evasion/retreat and a lethal response.

Carry on.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Blood lust and ranting will lead folks to contribute elsewhere.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Ok this is all I'm saying...when SHTF in a life or death situation (which happens somewhere everyday in this world) its either YOU or the OTHER guy (i.e. bad guy). I mean if someone were to break in your home or stick you up at the ATM, you guys mean to tell me that your going to be polite and offer them a glass of water and a turkey sandwich and say; Hey thanks for stopping by and robbing me!!!!

[1] This is not necessarily the kind of situation we are discussion in this thread. There are situations in which lethal force might not be appropriate or legally justified. The issue here is handling those.

[2] There's a lot of difference between using tactics and a level of force appropriate in a situation in which lethal force isn't warranted and inviting someone to lunch.

Again I suggest that you might do well to spend some time studying the legal issues related to the use of force in self defense. This (UseofForce.us) would be a good place to start.

 

[MLeake]

I don't typically carry non-lethal or less-than-lethal, but my rationale for that should address the OP's question close enough to on point.

First, LEO's usually have back-up present or on the way when they suspect a problem encounter. Even for a routine traffic stop, it is typical for a second unit to at least drive by and check status of the officer. I typically do not have back-up.

Second, a Taser typically only has one ranged shot, after which it becomes a contact stun gun.

Third, sprays either require aim, if concentrated, or are subject to wind, if dispersed. Also, courtesy of Uncle Sam, I have been subjected to the old "remove gas mask and recite phonetic alphabet" drill in a CS chamber. It was unpleasant; burning, watering eyes; draining sinuses; snot running from nose and dripping down chest; mild choking sensation. However, could I have continued a determined attack? I suspect I could have, though my ability would have been degraded.

I know the OP does not wish to discuss unarmed training, but that is also part of my rationale. I have a lot of training in evasion, escapes, takedowns, and controls. A person I cannot physically handle is most likely somebody who will shrug off non-lethal and less-than-lethal devices.

As others have indicated, the two best tools are awareness and avoidance.

But I still strongly believe anybody who carries should have at least some training in close contact / hand to hand, too.

Otherwise, good luck deploying any system, unless you see the attack coming early.

 

[2damnold4this]

Those are some good points, Mleake.

Another consideration is a citizen will always have close contact/ hand to hand training with him/her anywhere they go while they may not be able to legally carry a taser or pepper spray some places.

 

[K_Mac]

Excellent post MLeake

It is good to be reminded that using force, lethal or otherwise, to stop an aggressor is usually easier said than done, and without training and proficiency often ends badly.

 

[JollyRoger]

If you're carrying a gun, you should be carrying pepper spray. Period. It's cheap and it's usually effective, and it gives you an intermediate option which you need. It's not that uncommon for an unarmed person faced with a gun to cop an attitude and dare you to shoot them. Some posters here will tell you that lethal force is then justified: that kind of thinking will get you sent to prison unless you are a 75 year old man or woman getting pummeled senseless by an 18 year old thug, and there's video to prove it.

Lots of people who have never pointed a gun at anyone in their lives think they can pull the trigger without hesitation on an unarmed assailant. Not likely, and the perils of hesitation at close quarters are obvious. You're much less likely to hesitate with a non-lethal option like pepper spray, however, because you know it does no permanent physical damage.

Pepper spray impacts your ability to breathe deeply, which is great, but even better it causes your eyes to involuntarily squeeze shut, effectively blinding you. I'm a LEO and I've been sprayed a couple times in training, and I've used the stuff for real with good results. People don't drop to the ground like on the commercials for the stuff, granted, but it ruins their day.

Look around at the young ladies the next time you go to the coffee shop or wherever. You'll see pepper spray canisters dangling from some of their purses or keychains. There's your jury pool if you get arrested. They're not carrying tactical knives or impact weapons. They can relate to pepper spray. Another plus.

 

[Dan Manasia]

I am new here, and have retired in the hills on Nevada, from Downtown NYC. I would like to obtain a Non-lethal, i.e., rubber bullits, to protect my animals and my home. I do not want to kill any animals or any people. If that qualifies me as a wimp, so be it. The question is, do these types of rounds exist for retail purchase, and are they compatible with a conventional shotgun??

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I would like to obtain a Non-lethal, i.e., rubber bullits, to protect my animals and my home. I do not want to kill any animals or any people...

They are usually called "less lethal" munitions. They are not guaranteed not to inflict a mortal injury, and people have been killed by them. They are also not always effective at stopping a determined aggressor.

Various types of less lethal munitions are used by law enforcement. Standard procedure in using such munitions against a potentially lethal threat is to do so only with another officer with immediately available lethal force as back-up.

There are potential legal issues as well. Less lethal munitions will generally still be considered lethal force. As such, they may be used only in circumstances in which the use of lethal force would be legally justified. They are not really a part of the continuum of force alluded to elsewhere in this thread.

...I do not want to kill any animals or any people....

I understand, and that is certainly your decision and choice. But please be aware of the limitations of less lethal munitions and the legal issues. Also be aware that sometimes even lethal force will not immediately stop a determined, potentially lethal attack.

...do these types of rounds exist for retail purchase, and are they compatible with a conventional shotgun??

I know that there are various types (rubber bullets, beanbags, etc.) of less lethal munitions available that may be used in conventional shotguns. I don't know if they are legal in Nevada for private citizens or readily available for retail purchase. I suspect that there are any number of on-line sources.

 

[Dan Manasia]

Frank, Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I actually got the idea from a reality show about a Mammoth Lakes, CA enforcer, who keeps the bear population at bay with "non-lethal" force. It seems from what I have witnessed, that a bear is almost never killed in this town due to the decisions and expertise of this individual. Of course, if a bear simply cannot be "convinced" to stay away from people and their homes, an "order to kill" is issued. The program has been so successful, that it has received national attention, and only a single bear has had to be put down in the last three years.

I am an animal lover, and only wish to obtain a serious, but non-lethal, deterrent. My thought is that a gun that looks, sounds, and fires like a real shotgun (and still fires a very painful round), should suffice for my purpose. Thanks again. I'll check into it further.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Dan, provided they are legal in your jurisdiction, they can be purchased from MidwayUSA.

Sent from my HTC One X

 

[2damnold4this]

If you're carrying a gun, you should be carrying pepper spray. Period. It's cheap and it's usually effective, and it gives you an intermediate option which you need.

There are quite a few citizens that have successfully and legally defended themselves while carrying a firearm without carrying pepper spray.

I can see how pepper spray or some other less lethal option would be vital part of an leo's daily equipment. A leo might need to take an unarmed, large, belligerent shop lifter into custody. The average Joe has the option of backing off from the shop lifter and being a good witness. I'm sure there are some circumstances where a weapon like pepper spray would be a good option for a non-leo but we should remember that using a less lethal weapon on someone is legally acceptable only under narrow circumstances. It's also true that using lethal force one someone is also only acceptable under narrow circumstances but those circumstances are dire enough for me to carry firearm.

For me, having a firearm I'm trained with and having some hand to hand training are higher priorities than purchasing, training with and carrying a less lethal weapon like pepper spray.

 

[SouthernMarine]

Being a former correctional officer I can fully agree with the OP. I have been sprayed multiple times during training and from the "side shots" during duty. For lack of better terms the stuff sucks and will definately ruin your day.

Probably the best on the market for personal defense is the FOX 5.3, I have seen grown men drop to their knees by being sprayed from it.

I personally used Freeze +P CS/OC spray (which is standard issue around here) amazing stuff and burns like hell...your face feels like its on fire, you can't see, feels like you have sand in your eyes, feels like you can't breath, and by no means can you focus.

CS/OC spray is definately a recommended alternative to lethal force.

Also the FOX Mean Green spray comes out lime green adding a psychological factor to it as well.

Pepper spray is also very affordable $15-$20 for a 2oz can (best size since you can fit it in your pocket. However be sure to check with localn laws because I know in some places (like Florida) you have to get a CCW to carry pepper spray.

Sent from my LGL75C using Tapatalk 2

 

[wayneinFL]

I see options like pepper spray or Tasers more suited for law enforcement in the course of subduing a suspect. We're not supposed to be arresting people, so I don't see it as a must-have. In most situations like this, we're supposed to be getting out of there.

If your life is in danger from someone armed with a weapon, you don't really have a choice, and you don't have the time for anything but lethal force, IMO.

There are some situations in between- someone is stealing your bike, or someone is trying to start a fist-fight with you. In many of those situations, less lethal methods are likely to escalate the violence.

I'm not saying less lethal is useless, but of limited use. And if you're going to use it, you should be trained in its use.

 

[SouthernMarine]

I see options like pepper spray or Tasers more suited for law enforcement in the course of subduing a suspect. We're not supposed to be arresting people, so I don't see it as a must-have. In most situations like this, we're supposed to be getting out of there.

If your life is in danger from someone armed with a weapon, you don't really have a choice, and you don't have the time for anything but lethal force, IMO.

There are some situations in between- someone is stealing your bike, or someone is trying to start a fist-fight with you. In many of those situations, less lethal methods are likely to escalate the violence.

I'm not saying less lethal is useless, but of limited use. And if you're going to use it, you should be trained in its use.

I can see where you are coming from but in situations (such as those you mentioned) pepper spray would be great to neutralize the threat long enough for you to get away.

I'm not saying lethal force is unneccesary if someone breaks into my house at night you're d*** straight I'm gonna use lethal force, however, if someone is threatening and yelling at me on the street then I would use less-lethal force (tazer/pepper spray/ etc)

I also agree with your statement saying persons should be trained with it, however there really isn't much training to do with the above-said methods.

Sent from my LGL75C using Tapatalk 2

 

[markj]

Ok this is all I'm saying...when SHTF in a life or death situation (which happens somewhere everyday in this world) its either YOU or the OTHER guy (i.e. bad guy). I mean if someone were to break in your home or stick you up at the ATM, you guys mean to tell me that your going to be polite and offer them a glass of water and a turkey sandwich and say; Hey thanks for stopping by and robbing me!!!!

No, first off he has to get past my security to enter my home. Wont happen without my knowing so that is moot.

Secondly, I dont go to an outdoor atm, I use the one in walgreens or some other store so it is a free transaction and I get some level of security inside.

My point was to not go about in idiot fashion and let some thug get the drop on ya. I was trying to say it nice....a person can take certain precautions in life....or not.