Jeepmark2005
New member
It's not bad and ALMOST as big as a .45 . I like .45's.
New Military 45
- Thread starter hsim
- Start date
I''d like to see an American company get it. IM a big fan of the Ruger P90 but its not considered? The SW MP seems to be a nice firearm I dont know much about it but it feels good and has a nice grip angle. H/K over priced, the XD seems to be a good firearm but I dont like the idea of it being made in another country as is the Glock which is a fine weapon and Sig. 
Chaingunner
New member
I do drop the random rare word sometimes...!
I'm sorry for sounding like a little snot
Position of controls. I realize that on most semiautos the safety, mag release, and slide lock tend to be in pretty much the same places, but I noticed that on the Px and 92 the controls even look pretty much the same. Anyone who's used a 92 (but who isn't particularly gun-savvy) oughtta be able to pick up a PX and go "ok, I can use this no problem."
None taken (even though in my previous post it may have sounded that way). Again, sorry for sounding like a snot...!
Make Mine a Colt
New member
New .45 ACP
A couple of thoughts regarding the Army's looking to go back to the .45 ACP.
Something to remember - the Military is limited to the use of "ball" ammo. The 9mm "ball" round in use now is the .38 Long Colt of the 21st century. The only really effective "ball" round out there is the 230 gr .45 ACP. It was true when the Army tested it way back then, and it remains true today.
Regarding who we buy the new weapons from. I work in the defense industry - if our Government does not buy a gun that is manufactured in the USA, by a USA owned company, then in time we will lose the capacity in this country to manufacture our own arms. Think about what that means.
Bob
A couple of thoughts regarding the Army's looking to go back to the .45 ACP.
Something to remember - the Military is limited to the use of "ball" ammo. The 9mm "ball" round in use now is the .38 Long Colt of the 21st century. The only really effective "ball" round out there is the 230 gr .45 ACP. It was true when the Army tested it way back then, and it remains true today.
Regarding who we buy the new weapons from. I work in the defense industry - if our Government does not buy a gun that is manufactured in the USA, by a USA owned company, then in time we will lose the capacity in this country to manufacture our own arms. Think about what that means.
Bob
HorseSoldier
New member
.45 ACP underperforms just as readily as 9mm in the real world -- it may put a little more thump on the target, but it still fails to stop with a single round quite reliably. Neither 9mm or 45 ACP pistols are a substitute for a rifle or carbine when it comes to putting targets down. As for 38 Long Colt, its ballistics make 380 ACP look burly, it should come as no surprise that a round nose lead bullet with inadequate power to penetrate to lethal distances developed a bad reputation . . . but has nothing to do with +P sort of 9x19 military loadings except as a faulty historical parallel.
US law requires that whatever weapon is selected has to be manufactured in the United States, regardless of whatever design and manufacturer is selected.
I want the Glock.... BUT since we carry weapons in condtion 1, I hope we don't get it. I know alot of Idiots in the Military and I don't think they should be able to carry a pocket knife much less a Gun but it 's the way things go. That being said I want the gun with the Most safety's or safety related options it can possibally have on it and since the PX4 is on the same premiss as the 92, as in if you can shoot a 92 and you pick up a PX4 you will be able to understand the controls I vote PX4.
On a side note I know that 100 safety's won't stop a idiot but at least it's 100 things they have to get through to hurt themselves or others and THEN they can be held liable for there actions 100 times over.
On a side note I know that 100 safety's won't stop a idiot but at least it's 100 things they have to get through to hurt themselves or others and THEN they can be held liable for there actions 100 times over.
Make Mine a Colt
New member
Made in the USA
HorseSoldier Your statement is 100% correct. "US law requires that whatever weapon is selected has to be manufactured in the United States, regardless of whatever design and manufacturer is selected." But, what if the manufacture is a foreign owned company and some where down the road the government of that country of the foreign owned company decide that they do not want their company to manufacture or sell guns to "those" Americans. So the company closes down their America plant, and withdraws their machinery. Then where do we buy our weapons. Ruger, S&W, Colt? No, sorry they all went out of business because the "civilian market only" was not good enough to keep their door open (or the lawyers put them out of business).
Can't happen. Think again. One only needs to look at the British to see what happens when a country does not maintain the capacity to manufacture it's own weapons. They let their arms industries decline to the point of not being able to produce enough arms to defend their country, not just once, but twice in the same century. Guess who had to bail them out, twice!
Food for thought.
Bob
HorseSoldier Your statement is 100% correct. "US law requires that whatever weapon is selected has to be manufactured in the United States, regardless of whatever design and manufacturer is selected." But, what if the manufacture is a foreign owned company and some where down the road the government of that country of the foreign owned company decide that they do not want their company to manufacture or sell guns to "those" Americans. So the company closes down their America plant, and withdraws their machinery. Then where do we buy our weapons. Ruger, S&W, Colt? No, sorry they all went out of business because the "civilian market only" was not good enough to keep their door open (or the lawyers put them out of business).
Can't happen. Think again. One only needs to look at the British to see what happens when a country does not maintain the capacity to manufacture it's own weapons. They let their arms industries decline to the point of not being able to produce enough arms to defend their country, not just once, but twice in the same century. Guess who had to bail them out, twice!
Food for thought.
Bob
Jeepmark2005
New member
^ that is a very valid point. I am very impressed with the H&K USP .45 and that WAS my first choice but you are right. Definately something to think about. I think the USP is probably the most reliable and rugged firearm availible but it IS a German company. How much do we want to count on other countries to produce our firearms. Do you want to have our tanks shipped here from Japan? If they make a better product that saves the lives of our soldiers when our product can not then what is right? Maybe WE need to make a better product.
once again the M9 will not be replaced (definitely not with .45acp) as the general/official sidearm. They might get a .45 for special ops but it will not replace the 92FS!
I don't understand why people even talk about this, who cares who caries what? I don't like Berettas because US army uses it and wouldn't like it less if it was replaced. I just don't get this 'gossip' type threads
I don't understand why people even talk about this, who cares who caries what? I don't like Berettas because US army uses it and wouldn't like it less if it was replaced. I just don't get this 'gossip' type threads
FrankyCorleone
New member
My 1911 is on backorder because they're switching to the .45. I don't see how that effects my 1911 unless they indeed are going back to the 1911.
It is also a Springfield Armory.
I'll see if I can get any more details this weekend. I could be wrong, I don't see how else it would effect my order unless they are indeed going back to the 1911.
It is also a Springfield Armory.
I'll see if I can get any more details this weekend. I could be wrong, I don't see how else it would effect my order unless they are indeed going back to the 1911.
HorseSoldier
New member
"They" aren't going back to the 1911, up at the big picture, US Army Special Operations Command, level. But that does not mean some unit within SOCOM or possibly within USASOC itself has not placed an order for some Springfield 1911s -- with the war on and such that sort of thing is being done by a lot of SOF units and some conventional ones.
The 3 not currently available on the market are out. It has to be an NDI(non-developmental item). Second strike capability takes out the XD and the Glock. That leaves Sig, HK and Para. HK has a history with the military special ops guys, so that is a plus for them. However, sig is very popular with federal LE, so that is a feather in their cap. Para has a following in the competition world, but I question whether they could produce the volume or the quality to be competitive.
The CZ-97 is missing from the list, but it is a big heavy peice of gun that not everyone could handle.
The CZ-97 is missing from the list, but it is a big heavy peice of gun that not everyone could handle.
Any failures with the 40 were more likely a result of poor shot placement than the difference between calibers.
I believe the militarys choice of caliber is directly related to their inability to use hollow pointed ammo. The larger 45 acp fmj @ low speed are the best stoppers among fmj's.
Jeepmark2005
New member
Soooo a .40 hollow point that expands is equally as effective as a .45 that expands???
I prefer the .45 because due to is large size and low velocity it is less likely to over penetrate and hurt someone behind my intended target. It's large surface helps to reduce the velocity of the round after it hits.
It is also a proven man stopper. Everything is always comparied to the .45 . I wonder why? Because it is the bench mark round. I would also feel comfortable with a .357 Magnum round. It is much smaller and lighter than a .45 but it is a proven man stopper.
That being said I would drop my .45 like a bad habit and pick up a rifle or shotgun if the option was available in my time of need.
Any hand gun is under powered in the presence of a rifle. ( The .500 is not a hand gun it is a tank round in a portable package and you have to be nuts to shoot it )
I prefer the .45 because due to is large size and low velocity it is less likely to over penetrate and hurt someone behind my intended target. It's large surface helps to reduce the velocity of the round after it hits.
It is also a proven man stopper. Everything is always comparied to the .45 . I wonder why? Because it is the bench mark round. I would also feel comfortable with a .357 Magnum round. It is much smaller and lighter than a .45 but it is a proven man stopper.
That being said I would drop my .45 like a bad habit and pick up a rifle or shotgun if the option was available in my time of need.
Any hand gun is under powered in the presence of a rifle. ( The .500 is not a hand gun it is a tank round in a portable package and you have to be nuts to shoot it )
Penetration of .40 vs .45 is realy not that much different. In some cases, the .45 out penetrates the .40 using the same brand and design of ammo. To assure expansion, defensive loads for .45 routinely go over 1000 fps. That is not a far cry from .40 stadard velocity. Additionaly, the bullet is heavier and carrys more energy, thus greater penetration is possible. Check out http://stevespages.com/table3.html . Look under the terminal performance link and compare for yourself.
Total procurement of 649,000 units. First 600k must have manual safeties. The 49k (designated for USSOCOM) must have some form of DAO or LEM/DAK. So in reality the weapon design must support both manual safety and no safety at all. That knocks out half the field right there. Nevermind the ability to swap out the FCG to handle SA/DA, DAO or LEM.
10rnd magazine requirement knocks out the single stacks.
Finally the restrike capability requirement knocks out everybody else.
The only two left standing are HK and maybe FNH, although the contract is a "presolicitation notice" meaning only guns currently in production. FNH has nothing currently in production that meets the requirements. They don't even have a 45ACP. Sounds like HK45 to me.
Jeepmark2005
New member
I am no balistics expert. I just know what I have seen. Just like anybody else you make your decisions based on your experiance. It has been my experiance that the .45 knocks 'em down. I don't think that a .45 will ALWAYS be a one shot stop. I just personnaly based on my experiance think that you have better odds with a .45 IF you are comfortable shooting a hand gun that powerful. Shoot the biggest caliber you are effective with. I am very comfortable with my .45
(Man this debate is fun)
There are always to many variables to determine a definate BEST round. I think the best round is the one that wins a gun fight. By whatever means.
My pick is the .45 . I am going to stop beating this dead horse because it is off subject anyway. Hmmm, I wonder how much hate and discontent I could start with a best defensive round topic. Hahahaha (evil laugh) Carry what you like.
(Man this debate is fun)
There are always to many variables to determine a definate BEST round. I think the best round is the one that wins a gun fight. By whatever means.
My pick is the .45 . I am going to stop beating this dead horse because it is off subject anyway. Hmmm, I wonder how much hate and discontent I could start with a best defensive round topic. Hahahaha (evil laugh) Carry what you like.
Jeep,
Did you see the failure to stop by the 45acp when the ccp civilian rescued the officer getting beaten by a psycho? I can't remember how many shots this bad guy took to the torso with zero, nada, nil effect. Only after a final head shot did the guy finally stop. If someone has the link you might find it interesting and sobering. The 45 is no magic man stopper. It like every other "combat" handgun caliber is anemic when compared to a rifle or shotgun. Its reputation as a better stopper than say the 9mm was mainly garnered during an era when only ball ammo was available. Unable to reach rifle velocities a handgun using ball ammo has only one other means of increasing stopping power BIG and SLOW. The 45acp is the king of big and slow.
Did you see the failure to stop by the 45acp when the ccp civilian rescued the officer getting beaten by a psycho? I can't remember how many shots this bad guy took to the torso with zero, nada, nil effect. Only after a final head shot did the guy finally stop. If someone has the link you might find it interesting and sobering. The 45 is no magic man stopper. It like every other "combat" handgun caliber is anemic when compared to a rifle or shotgun. Its reputation as a better stopper than say the 9mm was mainly garnered during an era when only ball ammo was available. Unable to reach rifle velocities a handgun using ball ammo has only one other means of increasing stopping power BIG and SLOW. The 45acp is the king of big and slow.
"Its reputation as a better stopper than say the 9mm was mainly garnered during an era when only ball ammo was available. "
And even today when we deploy downrange, ball ammo is still the only choice available. HP ammo can change things to far better performance in both the 9mm and .45 ACP but until regulations prohibiting the use of HP ammo on the battlefield is lifted, the 9mm is still an inferior choice when compared to the .45 ACP.
And even today when we deploy downrange, ball ammo is still the only choice available. HP ammo can change things to far better performance in both the 9mm and .45 ACP but until regulations prohibiting the use of HP ammo on the battlefield is lifted, the 9mm is still an inferior choice when compared to the .45 ACP.