New Military 45

[hsim]

O.K. so, here’s a burning question. The U.S. military is out shopping for a .45 ACP to replace it’s current crop of Beretta 9’s. Without getting into all the specifics. The players, according to varies sources, would seem to be as follows in no particular order:

Beretta – PX4 in 45 ACP (not current available on the market).
Glock – G21
H&K – USP45
Para Ordnance – LDA45
Smith & Wesson – M&P in 45 ACP (not current available on the market).
Springfield – XD45
Sig – P220
Taurus – 24/7 in 45 ACP (not current available on the market).
Other - ????

The reason no 1911’s are listed is the fact that the specs call for a number of guns to have no manual safety, possible suggesting that guns are to be traditional DA or DAO.

If you were shopping for the military, what would you pick? And why. Remember that the order is for approximately 600,000 units, so price will be a big factor in the equation.

In my most humble opinion, I think the Glock will beat out the H&K and Sig, not because of reliability, or accuracy, but because of price. At an additional $200 each unit, x 600,000 units, taxpayers will be expected to digest an additional $120,000,000! Over the cost of the Glocks. I also feel that the XD and M&P will be looked at hard, based on price. But I think Glock’s track record, will be hard to beat.

All this is assuming that they survive the torture test and mean round failure test that the military has installed.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Some things to note:

1) It appears official that the Big Army portion of the contract has been dropped, at least for the time being, so the contract now only applies to USASOC and is no longer for 600,000+ pistols. Big Army will retain the M9 for the time being, replacement for it may be named later (and, if so, likely will go with whatever USASOC adopts). That's been the rumor for a while, but the new issue of American Rifleman appears to offer print confirmation.

2) The HK entry is not the USP, as I understand it, but the new HK 45, which appears to be more like a P2000 in 45 ACP with ambidextrous controls and adjustable back straps.

3) Glock is not going to win, I'm pretty certain. The G-21 simply can't meet the "smallest to biggest" ergonomic requirements as currently configured. Grip reduction via the use of steel magazines would get them into the game, but Gaston does not seem inclined to mess with perfection.

My money is on HK or Sig getting the win, probably HK. Some USASOC units are already using USP45s (not Mk 23s) recently purchased at the unit level, so I'd guess HK has an inside track (a lot of the requirements in the contract appear to have been written by someone who wanted to buy an HK pistol, in my opinion, and think that was the USASOC original plan before Big Army signed onto, and then off, the project . . .). I'd put the XD as a darkhorse in third place, Beretta in 4th. I don't think Glock, Taurus, or Para Ordnance have a shot. The S&W M&P 45 is something of a question mark to me -- no firsthand experience with the currently available models or info on their track record to date.

 

[paratrooper]

What was so wrong with the .45 I carried 40 years ago ? It did the job . Anything within 50 feet of me became dog meat . Past that the M-14 "talked to them".

 

[sig226man]

I seem to recall that the JCP/SOCOM rfp wanted second strike on a hardened primer capability for their new .45 pistol and it had to be DA/SA. This would rule out 1911's, Glocks, XD's, and the M&P. The pistols that would come close are those with traditional hammers like the Sig 220 and the HK 45. My money is on the HK since it has everything that was spec'd out by SOCOM. If Sig can make adjustable grips for the 220, then cool.

 

[Shaun]

from what i hear any gun without a manual safety ie XD45 or glock, is out from the get go...i also think it requires a hammer and decocker, but im not as positive. The sig would be sweet but its an old design and the military probably wants something new (and hi-cap). I voted HK...maybe not the USP, but a HK design with DA/SA capability and a thumb safety.

 

[Renfield]

what's wrong with a domestic maker ? or a metal frame ? aluminum or steel

 

[Shaun]

nothing wrong with domestic....as for metal frames, $$$. I admit HK is pricy for a civillian gun, but if you order 100,000 of them polymer brings the cost down. Polymer is also lighter and less prone to rust or damage from drops and such.

 

[tony pasley]

i would guess the hk because it has a track record with units and is made here in the usa so no start-up it is already running

 

[Shaun]

hk is made in the US?? mine says made in germany on the side....

 

[Renfield]

here's an interesting parallel for you..Honda might make cars here but most of the profit doesn't stay in the USA

Ruger could supply the military with the P-90 or P-97

 

[281 Quad Cam]

As I remember, the specs for the new pistol specified a manual safety.

I'd assume that to them... Manual safety is very important... NOT because it will actually make for less negligent discharges among trained personel, but because it offers one less excuse to those numbskulls that claim that it "Just went off."

I would assume that factor right there, is more important to the big Army than changing calibre's from 9 ro .45.

 

[USMCGrunt]

Well, out of the ones you listed, the USP comes the closest IMHO. However, I agree that the new HK45 has the best chance of going somewhere in the military. The modular construction allows the use of the LEM trigger for your base populace types that really shouldn't be allowed to use a single action handgun (med group anyone???) yet is still light enough as not to detract from it's accuracy potential and yet can be converted to a single action through the swapping of a few parts for those that are proficent in that style of handgun. The interchangable backstrap allows for a better fit amongst a wider cross section of shooters and while it gives up 2 rounds to it's predicessor, the USP-45, the thinner grip also is a benefit for those with smaller hands.
I don't see the Glock 21 getting the nod because of the lack of second strike capability and the grips are going to be too large to fit the number of people the original contract specified. The second strike capability that was also specified also rules out the XD-45, S&W MP and I believe the Taurus also lacks a second strike capability (though please correct me if I'm wrong). Beretta has the stigma of the M9 going against it be it right or wrong. There are problems with the M9 breaking locking blocks and cracking slides (yes, it does still happen and in the CATM lesson plan, "slide seperation" is still a listed parts malfunction) as well as the use of Checkmate mags that to a lot of folks lead them to believe the M9 is unreliable. It's not when used with factory mags but the mentality is the sins of the mags are the sins of the gun. Would this effect the PX4 (assuming that it does come out in .45 ACP) if it is entered into trials has yet to be seen but I can imagine those personnel involved in evaluations would remember the name Beretta being attached to the M9 and lead to bias by name.

 

[CobrayCommando]

P220 costs military 500 dollars.

 

[Ftom14cat]

whoever voted for other, what does that mean?

 

[Chaingunner]

Realistically, if Beretta entered a gun it would probably win (assuming it passed all necessary torture tests) simply because the Px4 is pretty similar to the 92F and therefore, the military wouldn't have to retrain troops..

 

[BobK]

I voted "other". They should never have gone away from the 1911.

 

[Ftom14cat]

so bob, you dont think extra reliablility is a good thing?

 

[Radamanthus]

Chaingunner, maybe you can explain to me how the px4 is similar in any way to the 92f other than the name Beretta? It is totally different in exterior design, uses a different locking mechanism (rotating barrel vs. tilting block), seems to have different controls, a polymer frame, interchangeable backstraps, a standard accessory rail, and a muzzle-heavy barrel that self-centers in the slide, etc...

 

[Love&Hate12]

Should be a double stack, the Glock would be the cheapest and is accurate enough for standard army and marine purposes. The special ops get the custom 1911's and MK23's I believe, the p220 is a single stack which to me is fine for civilian use but in a combat scenerio I would prefer a double stack and it costs a lot. The HK costs like the SIG does so the Glock 21 would be the best choice for the standard grunts sidearm.

The Colt 1911 wouldn't be a bad choice actually, have doubles and singles made for the particular persons hands, the average female would prefer the single stack and the average male would prefer a double.

A .45 is the best choice though in terms of fmj ammo because of its larger size and slower movement resulting in more energy put into the target. The .40 would even be better than the 9mm in fmj due to its larger size and wadcutter shaped bullets that would have more blunt force.

 

[Richard]

Quite simply, the Glock 21 is simple to use and it works. I prefer 1911s but I would be very happy with a Glock 21 in combat. Regards, Richard