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neck size or full length size ?
- Thread starter rebs
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In the past I have neck sized, used a Redding body body die followed up by a Lee Collet neck die, and full length sized. I settled on using a Redding type S bushing full length die without a decapper or expander. Reasons are 1 - low runout, 2 - both neck and body are sized in one step and 3 - the cases can be fired in any rifle becasue I set my sizing die using the a GO gage that I installed the barrel with. That comes in useful when you have more than one rifle using the same cases
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Have found that the redding bushing dies need a bushing inserted to size the neck.
"I settled on using a Redding type S bushing full length die without a decapper or bushing. Reasons are 1 - low runout, 2 - both neck and body are sized in one step"
Am guessing thats just a slip up.
Have several rifles that require sb dies to accept fired brass from any other rifle, regardless of shoulder datum.
A lot depends on the specific rifle/reason you are loading for, but fairly generally good bet to use fl die. Am partial to the fl bushing dies, especially in 308.
"I settled on using a Redding type S bushing full length die without a decapper or bushing. Reasons are 1 - low runout, 2 - both neck and body are sized in one step"
Am guessing thats just a slip up.
Have several rifles that require sb dies to accept fired brass from any other rifle, regardless of shoulder datum.
A lot depends on the specific rifle/reason you are loading for, but fairly generally good bet to use fl die. Am partial to the fl bushing dies, especially in 308.
Full length sizing dies keeps case necks well centered on case shoulders when they headspace there. That ends up better centering bullets in the bore when the round fires.
Best done with a one piece die whose neck is honed out .001 to .002 inch smaller than loaded round neck diameter. Minimal sizing by moving fired case shoulder back no more than .002 inch.
Best done with a one piece die whose neck is honed out .001 to .002 inch smaller than loaded round neck diameter. Minimal sizing by moving fired case shoulder back no more than .002 inch.
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jetinteriorguy
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I used to just "bump" the shoulder .003" with a body sizing die and then do the necks with a Lee collet die. But now I just full length size with a body die then follow with the Lee collet die. I haven't seen any noticeable difference either in performance or longevity and this way it keeps things simpler, I don't have to worry about whether I'm going to use the brass in either my bolt guns or my semi auto gas guns.
zeke , I don't use the expander bushing, button, thingamajig or whatever the right term is. I think they can pull the neck out of alignment and cause run out.
Also long ago I read auto loaders should always be full length sized.
I headspace my bolt gun barrels myself using the same GO gage and same NOGO so I could get by with neck sizing only. That is not the case with old military and used rifles where you could have a longer chamber in one rifle, neck size only then the other rifle could have a chamber a couple of thousands shorter. Shoot a case in the longer chambered gun then neck size and have a hard time closing the bolt on the shorter chambered rifle.
Bottom line is FL size to SAAMI recommendations and you should be able chamber the round in any rifle that uses that cartridge regardless of when or who put it together.
Last reason is consistency
Also long ago I read auto loaders should always be full length sized.
I headspace my bolt gun barrels myself using the same GO gage and same NOGO so I could get by with neck sizing only. That is not the case with old military and used rifles where you could have a longer chamber in one rifle, neck size only then the other rifle could have a chamber a couple of thousands shorter. Shoot a case in the longer chambered gun then neck size and have a hard time closing the bolt on the shorter chambered rifle.
Bottom line is FL size to SAAMI recommendations and you should be able chamber the round in any rifle that uses that cartridge regardless of when or who put it together.
Last reason is consistency
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I've got better accuracy with new cases compared to neck only resized ones.
Comparing bullet run out different resizing methods produces may not be realistic. No commercial run out gauge positions the rimless cartridge neck and bullet like the rifle does when the round is fired. It's the mating of case and chamber shoulders, not some point on the case body near its shoulder, that centers the front of the cartridge. Typically, no part of the case body behind the shoulder to the pressure ring touches the chamber. The pressure ring is typically touching the chamber opposite the extractor. Therefore, the cartridge is a tiny bit crooked in the chamber.
If a perfectly straight cartridge case head is .001" off chamber center, the bullet tip will be about half that off center in the bore at the opposite direction. Cartridge pivots about its shoulder.
Comparing bullet run out different resizing methods produces may not be realistic. No commercial run out gauge positions the rimless cartridge neck and bullet like the rifle does when the round is fired. It's the mating of case and chamber shoulders, not some point on the case body near its shoulder, that centers the front of the cartridge. Typically, no part of the case body behind the shoulder to the pressure ring touches the chamber. The pressure ring is typically touching the chamber opposite the extractor. Therefore, the cartridge is a tiny bit crooked in the chamber.
If a perfectly straight cartridge case head is .001" off chamber center, the bullet tip will be about half that off center in the bore at the opposite direction. Cartridge pivots about its shoulder.
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I could be doing something wrong because I am not really seeing any difference if I neck size or full length size. But it could be my shooting, I can fire the same load and get a 2" group at 300 yds and some times I get a 4" inch group. With that same load I have shot 3 groups of five shots all touching at 300 yds. My rifle is a Tikka T3x varmint in 223 cal. I am using an RCBS standard 223 die for full length sizing and a Lee Collet die for neck sizing.
NoSecondBest
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Over the last fifty years I've done it all. After a lot of messing around trying to wring the most accuracy out of my reloads I've come to the conclusion that FL sizing is so close to optimal that any "extra" I get out of doing everything else for my chuck hunting and deer hunting is simply a waste of my time. With a quality gun, good barrel, and adequate loading techniques I'm getting very good accuracy with a minimum of effort. My varmint guns are getting .5-.6" five shot groups at a hundred yards, and my deer guns are just about the same. If I were shooting benchrest competition I'd probably put a bit more in to it.
I think someone or a few people that have fired thousands of rounds of 22 through 45 caliber bullets in bottleneck cases with the most accurate bullets in reloaded cases through the best barrels available would know which fired case resizing dies and use details would have the most credible opinion on what makes the most accurate reloads.
Ask the bullet makers what they use and how it's set up.
I think Ferris Pindell (one of the P's developers of the PPC cartridges) is one who helped convince benchresters to give up on neck only sizing and start full length sizing back in the 1960's. He was a tool and die maker for a bullet company machining their bullet forming dies. Championed the idea in the late 1950's that their 30 caliber FMJBT match bullets would be more accurate if hollow pointed. So they were
Ask the bullet makers what they use and how it's set up.
I think Ferris Pindell (one of the P's developers of the PPC cartridges) is one who helped convince benchresters to give up on neck only sizing and start full length sizing back in the 1960's. He was a tool and die maker for a bullet company machining their bullet forming dies. Championed the idea in the late 1950's that their 30 caliber FMJBT match bullets would be more accurate if hollow pointed. So they were
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Neck sizing is limited to the bolt action rifle the cases were fired from. Semi-autos, lever actions and pumps require FL resizing every time. Has to do with the differences in camming action between the action types.
Virgin bottle necked brass requires FL resizing at least the first time. New brass is not ready to load out of the factory.
If you use the same cases in more than one rifle, you must FL resize when loading for one or the other.
Neck or FL sizing isn't about accuracy. It's about reliable feeding and chambering.
Virgin bottle necked brass requires FL resizing at least the first time. New brass is not ready to load out of the factory.
If you use the same cases in more than one rifle, you must FL resize when loading for one or the other.
Neck or FL sizing isn't about accuracy. It's about reliable feeding and chambering.
I wouldn't say "require". I and others routinely neck-size only levergun cartridges (I do 30-30 and 45-70).Neck sizing is limited to the bolt action rifle the cases were fired from. Semi-autos, lever actions and pumps require FL resizing every time. Has to do with the differences in camming action between the action types.
Virgin bottle necked brass requires FL resizing at least the first time. New brass is not ready to load out of the factory.
If you use the same cases in more than one rifle, you must FL resize when loading for one or the other.
Neck or FL sizing isn't about accuracy. It's about reliable feeding and chambering.
I can't speak to semi-autos.
Why not, whatcha think is wrong with it?Virgin bottle necked brass requires FL resizing at least the first time. New brass is not ready to load out of the factory.
Not at all true. Not in my experience as well as many others.
Few can reload fired cases that shoots as accurate as good commercial match ammo made with new virgin brass out of the factory.
Lots of long range matches have been won and records set with new virgin unprepped belted and rimless cases; all right out of the factory.
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zeke , I don't use the expander bushing, button, thingamajig or whatever the right term is. I think they can pull the neck out of alignment and cause run out.
I no longer have those in my FL dies.
I do use an M die to have as consistent a case opening as I can get.
Most of the time am using a decapper with smaller caliber expanding button so as to not have to deprime in a separate step. Usually don't expand the neck, unless the case needs trimmed. If using an full diam button, the dies being used allow the carbide button to "float". Can also just loosen the decapper, which can allow a fixed expanding button to "float". This can minimize/eliminate pulling the neck off center.
When using the bushing die, am allowing the bushing to float. In addition the lower section of the neck is minimally/not sized. Believe this has been mentioned on this board before.
When using the bushing die, am allowing the bushing to float. In addition the lower section of the neck is minimally/not sized. Believe this has been mentioned on this board before.
Why not all of the neck back to the shoulder?When using the bushing die, am allowing the bushing to float. In addition the lower section of the neck is minimally/not sized.
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