Much as I am opposed to the concept of mandatory training...

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Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
DNS said:
It was only an accident in the sense that the discharge was not intentional. Otherwise, Zambrana would have been arrested for murder. While the discharge was not intentional, it was absolutely negligential in the sense that it was an event that could have and should have been prevented had proper handling of the gun been followed.


Certainly it was negligence. My only beef is with the people who seem to think that negligence is incompatible with an accident. We see it in every thread wherein someone mentions an AD, "accidental discharge". There's always 2 or 3 someones screaming about how it's not an AD, it's a ND... as if it somehow can't be BOTH.

As stated above:

FTG-05 said:
Lack of training didn't cause the negligent discharge (note: it was not an accident!)

and

fiddletown said:
Sorry, but no. Unfortunate, yes; but not really an accident.

Both statements directly assert that because it was negligent and/or a violation of The Rules, it is somehow NOT "an accident".

It's as if we are implying that by saying it's not an accident we somehow consider the incident more serious than someone who uses the word "accident" or the person who thinks it's an accident doesn't really understand how serious it was.

It's just a silly and unnecessary argument. An irrelevant distinction, in these instances. It's a terrible, tragic, ACCIDENT that resulted from negligence. The two are not mutually exclusive. Even worse, claiming that it wasn't an accident is implying that it was intentional, as if the man shot the girl on purpose because, if it wasn't "an accident" then it WAS intentional. If it WASN'T intentional, it WAS an accident.
 

JimPage

New member
I stopped teaching the NRA basic pistol course years ago because it was becoming a drag and I was sort of burnt out. But I still teach some folks who need special help (friends, acquaintances who ask or who I observe need the teaching). Just a couple of days ago someone told me he wasn't sure how to load his gun anymore. I will be spending a lot of time with him!

But I always train everyone I teach, whether on the range or classroom to always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction while keeping finger off the trigger, check to make sure it's not loaded while keeping finger off the trigger, always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction keeping the finger off the trigger, etc etc, Over and over and over. Several different ways to convey that, but the same message.

Safe direction includes what is beyond what you can see (walls, ceilings, doors, etc).

EVERY TIME YOU PICK UP THE GUN WHETHER YOU JUST PUT IT DOWN OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!

I know this is repetitious and monotonous to read from all these posts, but it is the responsibility of each of us.
 

MTT TL

New member
All the training in the world won't save you from stupid. That Seal who shot himself in the head showing his "unloaded" gun to a lady friend last month is a sad example. No matter who you think you are, you are still vulnerable.
 
Who is "trained in safety" by your definition? What do you suggest?

By my definition? Back up chief. People are claiming that Zambrana had "safety training" as a result of having a CCW and/or from being a security guard. The question that should be being asked is what is the safety "training" that Zambrana had. Unless he is a firearms instuctor, chances are that his safety "training" was extremely limited to being told the basic gun safety rules, maybe having to identify them on a test, and then not being spotted violating them while otherwise qualifying. Chances are that during the course of his security guard and CCW instruction, he received no materials safey and handling instruction. He probably was not familiar with exactly what would and would not constitute an appropriate backstop to stop a projectile fired from his gun. He probably has never seen or learned the contents of a materials safety and handling sheet for his ammunition or chemicals used in maintaining his gun. Chances are, Zambrana through his CCW or security guard training never received instruction and became qualified to be a range safety officer for the gun range where he shots or for the security company for which he had worked.

His "training" was likely the same 5 or 10 minute guns rules safety review we have all had countless times and then some sort of correction, if needed, if he was seen to violate any of the safety rules whilst on the range. That isn't really "training." It is actually just a comprehension of minimal standards, nothing more. My 76 year old mother got all that "training" last year when she renewed her CHL here in Texas. It isn't training. It is just a brief familiarization, nothing more.

There are people in numerous fields who do undergo extensive safety training for materials handling. There are college degrees in occupation safety and some of which allow for specializations such as chemical handling, fire safety, etc. A lot of your disaster preparation and response training includes extensive safety training. Most of us don't get anything like that.

Both statements directly assert that because it was negligent and/or a violation of The Rules, it is somehow NOT "an accident".

If the gun fires because the trigger was depressed by the person handling the gun, then it wasn't an accident, except to say that it was unintentional. If the handler depressed the trigger and the gun fired, then there is nothing about the firing that is accidental. All parts worked as designed. That is exactly what is supposed to happen when you pull the trigger on a gun with a chambered round. That makes it a negligent discharge. It might be a negligent discharge that was accidental in the sense that nobody intended a round to be fired, but because due diligence was not observed, a round did fire. That is a negligent discharge.

That the gun was not oriented in a safe direction with a proper backstop when it discharged would appear to be another act of negligence. I know - it was an accident that the bullet shot through the closet wall. Wait, the closet wall isn't an appropriate backstop. That sounds like more negligent handling. It was an accident that Hannah Kelley was hit in the head. Well, obviously Zambrana doesn't have X-ray vision and so could not have been aiming through the wall to shoot the intended buyer's girlfriend, but Zambrana didn't have a proper backstop and did not know what was beyond his backstop which turned out to be another human. Negligence.

People are quick to say that "accidents happen" as if there is no blame. Amazingly, far few "accidents" happen when people pay attention to the rules.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
There's a saying in aviation - "If you never walk through a prop arc, you'll never get hit by a prop." It's been so ingrained into me that I will still walk *around* a prop, even if the plane is in the hangar, up on jacks with the engines removed. Anal? Sure. Silly? Perhaps. But I'll never walk into a spinning prop.

The gun safety rules aren't hard to remember or perform, but just about every AD or accidental shooting leads back to a violation of one or more of them.
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
I guess I'm not sure what definition of "accident" folks are using. Accident is virtually synonymous with unintentional.

It was only an accident in that it was unintentional. It was unintentional therefor it was an accident. What other kind of accident is there?

Accident:
An accident or mishap is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance, often with lack of intention or necessity. It implies a generally negative outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence.


So, the definition of negligence is essentially included in the definition of accident.

This is a very odd discussion to be having. I really don't understand the animosity toward the word accident. I don't understand the belief that using the word accident lessens the severity of the negligence or shifts blame away from the actor. It does not.

An accident caused by negligence, still an accident.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
peetzakilla said:
...This is a very odd discussion to be having. I really don't understand the animosity toward the word accident. I don't understand the belief that using the word accident lessens the severity of the negligence or shifts blame away from the actor. It does not...
I think you're correct. It seems that some folks are extending the term "accident" to imply that the event was somehow excusable, i. e., "it was just an accident."

So let's try this --

[1] It was an accident insofar as it was not intended.

[2] But it was not excusable because it was the result of someone's failure to properly observe appropriate safety procedures. And safety with a gun is not negotiable.

[3] It was an avoidable event, and the person handling the gun had both the opportunity to avoid the result and the responsibility to avoid the result.
 

ScottRiqui

New member
peetzakilla - the definition of "accident" that you posted is the best I've seen, because (as you stated), it includes the concept of negligence right in the definition. But there are other definitions that don't do that, such as:

"an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap" (dictionary.com)

-or-

"something that happens unexpectedly, without being planned" (MacMillan)


"It's okay - it was just an accident" is acceptable when you're consoling a child who's just spilled a glass of milk, but in the context of firearm safety, I think it's more important to stress the avoidable nature of an incident. Since not everyone thinks of an "accident" as being defined the way you defined it, there's been a move toward using "negligent discharge" rather than AD.
 

K_Mac

New member
It's as if we are implying that by saying it's not an accident we somehow consider the incident more serious than someone who uses the word "accident" or the person who thinks it's an accident doesn't really understand how serious it was.

It's just a silly and unnecessary argument. An irrelevant distinction, in these instances. It's a terrible, tragic, ACCIDENT that resulted from negligence. The two are not mutually exclusive. Even worse, claiming that it wasn't an accident is implying that it was intentional, as if the man shot the girl on purpose because, if it wasn't "an accident" then it WAS intentional. If it WASN'T intentional, it WAS an accident.

Peetzakilla this is as good as an argument as I've seen made. Well done.

DNS we keep coming back to the word, "accident." As I said earlier in this thread this was an accident by definition. From Dictionary.com (emphasis is mine):
ac·ci·dent 
noun
1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2. Law . such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
4. chance; fortune; luck: I was there by accident.
5. a fortuitous circumstance, quality, or characteristic: an accident of birth.

That this incident was negligent, stupid, and tragic does not make it any less accidental. That poor decisions were made causing this cannot be denied. The consequences of ignoring fundamental safety rules are predictable; yet they are still accidental when they happen. Even if the negligence is found to be criminal by reason of omission or commission the resulting action is still accidental.

Edit: As usual I'm a day late and a dollar short. I really need to improve my typing/writing skills...
 

wayneinFL

New member
DNS, the reason I ask is that I was trying to ascertain what kind of training, number of hours, etc, quality of training you would suggest if the state required training were not enough. This is from the handbook and doesn't cover any specifics. Do you think the state should be more specific in what is required? I can't imagine talking to students for three days and spending a minimum of four hours on the range and not covering what you're saying they should cover, but maybe they're not. Maybe it needs to be spelled out?

VI. FIREARMS TRAINING
a. An applicant for a Class “G” Statewide Firearm License
must have a minimum of twenty-eight (28) hours of range and
classroom training taught and administered by a Class “K”
Firearms Instructor.
Section 493.6105(6), F.S.
b. Class “G” licensees must obtain four (4) hours of
firearms range recertification training during each year of the 2-
year licensure period. If the four (4) hours annual training is not
completed each year of the 2-year licensure period, the full initial
training program (twenty-eight (28) hours) is required for
renewal. This training must be taught by a Class “K” Firearms
Instructor. Renewal of the Class “G” license will be denied if the
licensee has failed to obtain the required training.
Example: A licensee who is issued his Class “G” license
on June 1, 2006 which expires May 31, 2008 must receive four
(4) hours of firearms recertification training between June 1,
2006 and May 31, 2007 and four (4) hours between June 1, 2007
and May 31, 2008.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/FORMS/SOH_Handbook_00092_0209.pdf

I can't imagine spending 4 hours on the range and not covering what you're suggesting. But I take it you have more of an issue with the quality of the training and not the hours required?

IMO, police and military have a fairly decent training program, and yet these guys still have accidents. Are you suggesting higher quality training than that?

Personally, I'm not satisfied with training unless I take a course once a year and shoot an IPSC match at least once a month. (Need to get back to that, actually, instead of working all the time...) But I don't think everyone needs to do that to be safe. I don't think it needs to be required. And I think there are people who could have five times that much training and still cause an accident.
 

Rusty35

New member
peetzakilla
Senior Member


Trying to say it wasn't an accident is trying to split hairs that don't even exist, IMO.

It doesn't matter how many ways we can parse it into various forms of negligence. It was STILL an accident.

If it wasn't intentional, it WAS an accident.

I don't get this apparent concept that accidents and negligence are mutually exclusive.

The only requirement for an accident is that it was unintentional. The "why" or "how" has no bearing.

If its not intentional, it IS an accident.


I am with you on this one.

Why does every one have to jump on the use of the word "accident"?

An "accident" is caused by human negligence.
The word "accident" is used to describe the out come of the negligence.

A person has a negligent discharge and accidentally shoots the Television.

The Television part of the equation is the accident, the discharge part is the negligence .
 

Nordeste

New member
If mandatory training really is important, including optional firearms safety classes during high school might be worth a try. That way when the student becomes old enough to purchase a firearm he will already of had training.

I second this. If kids already get information about driving safety and regulations at school, it wouldn't be a bad idea that they get the same about firearms, but you'll have to deal with anti-gun parents, then.


IMHO, some training is needed to handle firearms and it makes sense to make it mandatory.
 

JimPage

New member
Semantics can lead to some silly interpretations. One person's definition of a word may vary from another. To run a thread on semantics is silly? Or should I say stupid? Or should I say pointless? Or should I say a waste of time? Or should I say...
 

ScottRiqui

New member
I second this. If kids already get information about driving safety and regulations at school, it wouldn't be a bad idea that they get the same about firearms, but you'll have to deal with anti-gun parents, then.


IMHO, some training is needed to handle firearms and it makes sense to make it mandatory.

Students are not required to take Driver's Ed in school, nor do I think firearms safety training should be mandatory. If you're going to go that route, there are a lot of things that kill a lot more kids every year than firearms, so the mandatory training time would be better spent there (if it were to be spent at all, which I don't agree with).
 

K_Mac

New member
Semantics can lead to some silly interpretations. One person's definition of a word may vary from another. To run a thread on semantics is silly? Or should I say stupid? Or should I say pointless? Or should I say a waste of time? Or should I say...

Discussing, or even arguing about the meaning of words and what they communicate related to firearms is certainly as valuable as many other discussions here. Words are important and being aware of how they are perceived is valuable. This discussion is a good example of this. I don't see "accident" as a word that minimizes responsibility for negligence. Many others clearly do. Knowing this gives me information to help me communicate more effectively. What's wrong with that?

What I find silly and pointless are posts that presume to let us know how stupid we are for discussing such nonsense. That is a real waste of time.
 

K_Mac

New member
ON topic I think a mandatory basic firearms safety course before carrying a weapon is reasonable. I would be opposed to making it a part of any public school curriculum.
 

kraigwy

New member
IMHO, some training is needed to handle firearms and it makes sense to make it mandatory.

Who do you want to set the standards for mandatory training? Blomberg?
maybe the mayor of Chicago?

Which others of our Bill of Rights do you want mandatory for? 1st, 4th or 5th.

Where in the constitution does it require mandatory training for any of our rights.

Many use the analogy of driving. We require driver training and test to get a operator's license. If training was the answer, then there would be no traffic accidents.
 

Frank Ettin

Administrator
kraigwy said:
...Many use the analogy of driving. We require driver training and test to get a operator's license. If training was the answer, then there would be no traffic accidents.
So training has no value? Would there be fewer accidents on the road without driver training and licensing?
 

Rusty35

New member
fiddletown
Staff

So training has no value? Would there be fewer accidents on the road without driver training and licensing?

Training has lots of value.

I got my DL when training wasn't mandatory, over 40 years of driving.

Only accident I have been in was when a teen who had been through a drivers Ed program ran a stop sign.
 
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