Much as I am opposed to the concept of mandatory training...

[Nnobby45]

How can they even consider this an accident?

Because it was.

The fact that the shooter is a midget brained, intellectual prebuescent with no common sense or knowledge about firearms doesn't change the fact that he accidentally shot some one.

An incident be an accident and also involve negligence.

 

[Nnobby45]

... episodes like this really make me think twice about my position:

Why? What training program is a substitue for common sense?

We already have too many people in government posistions of power who feel that an isolated incident should justify legislation that punishes the overwhelming majority for whom the legislation is not necessary.

He had a CCW license, and I've yet to be involved in a course that didn't teach the basic safety principles. I'll bet his did, too.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Colvin]

As far as age is concerned, Zambrana is 48.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...ghter-shot-at-church-remains-critical/1215430

(Article will enrage you, I don't recommend reading it. Just posting it as evidence for the guy's age.)

 

[Doyle]

The guy's been through mandatory training. According to the news, he has a carry permit, which requires training.

Wayne, I don't know what other security officer training this guy had but the minimum required training for a CCW in FL is a joke. Literally, all it takes is firing a bullet once without hitting the instructor or some other innocent bystander and you get a nice pretty piece of paper saying you are firearm proficient.

 

[Odd]

If mandatory training really is important, including optional firearms safety classes during high school might be worth a try. That way when the student becomes old enough to purchase a firearm he will already of had training.

 

[MarkDozier]

It reinforces my checking and verifying my weapon status when I touch a gun.
You can fix stupid, but with a bit of thought you can prevent it.

 

[wayneinFL]

Wayne, I don't know what other security officer training this guy had but the minimum required training for a CCW in FL is a joke. Literally, all it takes is firing a bullet once without hitting the instructor or some other innocent bystander and you get a nice pretty piece of paper saying you are firearm proficient.

And with that minimum standard and 800,000 people licensed to carry in FL, accidental shootings are still very rare. But if you're still concerned about the training requirement and don't feel safe in Florida, there are plenty of states with stricter requirements.

Of course, our state requires 28 hours of training for a G license, and that didn't prevent this incident. So, if you think training is the cure, you have to find a state that requires more than 3 1/2 days of training for a CCW.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

He had a CCW license, and I've yet to be involved in a course that didn't treat the basic safety principles. I'll bet his did, too.

Sure, he was undoubtedly made aware of safety rules.

And with that minimum standard and 800,000 people licensed to carry in FL, accidental shootings are still very rare. But if you're still concerned about the training requirement and don't feel safe in Florida, there are plenty of states with stricter requirements.

Of course, our state requires 28 hours of training for a G license, and that didn't prevent this incident. So, if you think training is the cure, you have to find a state that requires more than 3 1/2 days of training for a CCW.

It is good that accidental/negligential shootings are rare. They should not happen at all. It was in Florida, as I recall, that it was that an NRA instructor ND'd into a student's foot during a CCW class.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...n-safety-nra-church-s-communications-director

I think folks have confused training with instruction. Very few people are trained in safety, though at various points in our lives we are almost all made aware of safety issues. These aren't the same thing.

You can fix stupid, but with a bit of thought you can prevent it.

Fixing stupid is more of a second party activity. People are notoriously bad at auto-fixing their own stupid acts, as noted for the NRA CCW instructor incident above. Ironically, that incident happened in a church as well.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

It's a strange thing, not so much "stupid", even though I used the word myself.

I've always been one who has constant "worst case what-if" scenarios running in my head any time I deal with dangerous equipment. Guns, chainsaws, wood splitters, bowling alley machines, even when the kids are at a park near a road. I'm always seeing scenarios play out where I didn't pay enough attention to what the 5 year old was doing or I set the saw down and it fell off the stump or I didn't check the chamber and handed the gun to someone.

I used to think everyone had these things going. I thought it was part of being an adult. That it was why kids had to be protected, because they don't run these scenarios yet.

Turns out not to be true. LOTS of adults don't have these scenarios running. I don't know why. It's not a "stupid" issue. I don't know why they don't or how to get them to start.

 

[CaptainObvious]

All this is is an unfortunate accident. My best friend slipped on a rock, hit his head and died. Now do we need to train people on how not to get into slip and fall accidents?

There will be unfortunate accidents where people are injured and killed. However, I think mandatory training is a good thing because of the unforgiving nature of firearms and the complex laws out there involving them. Its best to make sure people know what they are doing and know how not to get into trouble. I am all for people attending the various NRA courses out there and believe the responsible firearms owner will take the time to attend them. However, I dont believe training will prevent unfortunate accidents. Accidents will happen and we just need to get over them when they do happen. No one wants to shoot themselves or others accidentally, but it will happen just like car accidents will happen and slip&fall accidents will happen.

 

[Frank Ettin]

All this is is an unfortunate accident....

Sorry, but no. Unfortunate, yes; but not really an accident. This was a consequence of a failure to follow proper, well known gun safety protocols.

...Accidents will happen...

This sort of unintentional discharge and injury happens only when the guy with the gun does something wrong. We all need to avoid doing things wrong and to be reminded of the need to do so.

A short time ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus (emphasis added):

Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Trying to say it wasn't an accident is trying to split hairs that don't even exist, IMO.

It doesn't matter how many ways we can parse it into various forms of negligence. It was STILL an accident.

If it wasn't intentional, it WAS an accident.

I don't get this apparent concept that accidents and negligence are mutually exclusive.

The only requirement for an accident is that it was unintentional. The "why" or "how" has no bearing.

If its not intentional, it IS an accident.

 

[CaptainObvious]

I agree in part with your post in that this incident was probably as a result of not handling the firearm properly, but I dont agree with the part on the NRA not enforcing muzzle and trigger discipline.

Ever since I was a child, the golden rule for handling firearms was to treat it as if it were loaded even if it was obvious it was not loaded like a revolver with the cylinder out. That golden rule has been repeated ad nauseum to me and many others time and time again. I think there is even a big sign down at my local range which says it and I think I saw one of those signs down at the local shop. Every time I go onto the range, I have to sign some paperwork which probably specifically states something to that effect. I am confident all NRA instructors teach that golden rule to all of their students. Any firearms instructor I know of would enforce muzzle discipline and would not tolerate anyone pointing a firearm in an unsafe direction.

In any event, we dont know all the facts of this incident. Was the person handling the firearm not following the golden rule and foolishly pointing it at the wall pulling the trigger? Did they drop the firearm? Did the trigger snag on something? I dont think anyone wanted this to happen so it was probably an accident.

 

[kraigwy]

Accidents, or unintentional discharges do happen.

I give two examples.

I had a 1911 38 Super that was converted into a 38 WC gun. I couple times it doubled, meaning fired twice when I pulled the trigger.

Resulted in a miss, but didn't damage anything, I was pointed at the target down range.

A second incident occurred when I was shooting metallic Silhouette. I had a "set trigger" on my rifle. You set the trigger then had a "hair" or extremely light trigger. It was extremely cold I couldn't really feel the trigger.

Again I missed. But the rifle was pointed down range,

Both times:

The gun was loaded.

I had my finger on the trigger

BUT:

It was pointed at something I wanted to shoot

I was aware of the back ground.


Since I was following at least two of the four firearms safety rules,this was accidental shootings, not a negligent shootings.

Accidents do happen, but they don't have to be negligent.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I dont agree with the part on the NRA not enforcing muzzle and trigger discipline.

Ever since I was a child, the golden rule for handling firearms was to treat it as if it were loaded ... I am confident all NRA instructors teach that golden rule to all of their students. ...

I can't speak for all NRA instructors, but I and the group I teach with do. Of course, like the person whose email I quoted in my earlier post, I and those people I teach with all had much of our training at Gunsite. The NRA rules do not include your "golden rule."

The NRA rules are:

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

The Four Rules of Jeff Cooper and Gunsite are:

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Gunsite is a hot range. The Gunsite rules are particular well adapted to a hot range. The real world is a hot range.

...In any event, we dont know all the facts of this incident. ....

We have the information in the newspaper article:

...Investigators say Moises Zambrana was showing his gun in a small closet to another church member interested in buying a firearm. Zambrana reportedly took out the magazine of the Ruger 9mm weapon but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber...

If Mr. Zambrana was handling his weapon, he had a responsibility to do so in a safe manner.

...Was the person handling the firearm not following the golden rule and foolishly pointing it at the wall pulling the trigger? Did they drop the firearm? Did the trigger snag on something? ....

And those are still avoidable gun handling faults which the person handling the firearm was obliged to avoid.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It doesn't matter how many ways we can parse it into various forms of negligence. It was STILL an accident.

In any event, we dont know all the facts of this incident. Was the person handling the firearm not following the golden rule and foolishly pointing it at the wall pulling the trigger? Did they drop the firearm? Did the trigger snag on something? I dont think anyone wanted this to happen so it was probably an accident.

It was only an accident in the sense that the discharge was not intentional. Otherwise, Zambrana would have been arrested for murder. While the discharge was not intentional, it was absolutely negligential in the sense that it was an event that could have and should have been prevented had proper handling of the gun been followed.

Was he foolishly pointing it at the wall and pulling the trigger? Maybe. We do know that he was foolishly pointing it in an unsafe direction. We do know that he had know way to know what was beyond the backstop of the wall of the closet he was in. We do know that when the gun was discharged that it struck a person as a result of not having a proper backstop and not having a way to know that somebody was downrange from the gun that was being handled.

Sorry CaptainObvious, you seem to be trying to alibi Zambrana out of responsibility by saying it wasn't intentional, but he was responsible. Hannah Kelley suffered a significant head injury as a direct result of his actions.

 

[markj]

The more people have guns, the more people will be hurt from accidents. I never belived this until I went to Register cliff in Wyo. The wagon train folk buried a lot of folkss there, cause of death? Accidental gunshots. Folks would get a gun for the trip due to indians and animal threats. Would be walking along, would take gun and look it over, bang just shot the guy over there. No antibiotics many died from a simple wound. There is a large sign there outlining this. The folks was raised up with guns were a bit safer.

I try to not get too upset, the guy is going thru heck over it I am sure. I do train my son and daughter in the safe handleing of a firearm and I recommend everyone else do the same.

 

[kinggabby]

Even in states that do require mandatory training for CC things like this happen. I agree he broke the 4 rules. Always treat a gun as it is loaded . How hard is it to drop the magazine and open the action to see if anything is in there?

 

[K_Mac]

I'll add my $.02 for what it's worth. First by definition it was an accident, as has already been said a couple of times. It was unintentional, therefore accidental. As has also been said, that does not mean it was not negligent. It was negligent. We do not need to have all the details. There is no acceptable reason to have a loaded, unholstered weapon being passed around in this situation. There is no acceptable reason for the discharge of this weapon. The responsibility for all of this is on the owner of the weapon.

Training, experience, licensing are not the issue. This man violated the fundamental rules of carrying and handling a weapon. Carrying a weapon brings with it huge responsibility. " I didn't mean to," is of little consequence here. Tell that to the Pastor and his congregation. I understand we are all capable of doing something stupid, but when it comes to handling weapons we all have to do things right. Cooper's, "not me, not today" is a mantra we should all embrace IMO.

 

[wayneinFL]

DNS:

I think folks have confused training with instruction. Very few people are trained in safety, though at various points in our lives we are almost all made aware of safety issues. These aren't the same thing.

Who is "trained in safety" by your definition? What do you suggest?