Marriage and Civil Unions

LonWilson

New member
Marraige and Civil Unions

Typically, threads here in regards to anything in terms of homosexuality usually get shut down pretty quickly, no matter who posts it. I guess I'm trying to buck the trend here, and hopefully have some civil discourse in this manner.

The topic is: Marraige and Civil Unions.

As a gay man, I can say that I do, in many ways, support the idea of two consenting adults wanting to marry. However, much of the groundswell of opposition to any "domestic partnership" or "Gay marriage" proposal has been over the "dilution of the meaning of legally supported marriage in America".

However, as a libertarian, I often have a "third way" approach to dealing with an issue.

In my debates with opponents of gay marraige in general, I often use marriage licensing against them. When someone tells me "Allow gays to marry would dilute the meaning of the American family", I usually respond with "Well, sir, that's all well and great, but why is it that a couple, even if they're of an opposite sex relationship, are required to go down to a courthouse, pay a fee to the government, just for the "privilege" of getting married? Isn't government regulation and taxation of what is primarily a religious function considered repugnant to what it means to be a free republic?".

Often, they shut their mouth right then, because they realize, in a deep down inside, that I'm right. Why does the government require marriage licensing in the first place?

At the moment, there are many things dependent on the government licensure of marraige. Automatic inheritance of estate, full claims of tax exemptions, automatic hospital visitation, and many other things that opposite sex couples take for granted. Where government requires a document to prove two are together in marriage, private agencies and court systems make their rules around that, even if the core reasoning behind the licensure in the first place is a bad reason.

Marraige licensing, to me, is no different than CCW licensing. Though, technically, the states and the US Government aren't allowed to infringe and tax a right, they do so anyway, because having a government pass is better than not having one in the eyes of many.

Up until 1967, it was illegal in a few southern states for interracial marrying. This was enforced by the county courthouses who refused to give out marriage licenses because the issuing authority and/or state law forbid it. Though the SCOTUS cleared this issue up, it also brings an interesting point: If marriage licensing has racist origins in the south, why is it still in practice?

The institution of marriage, in my opinion, should be a private one, outside of government licensure. Either the marriage licenses that are given out should be "Civil unions" for everyone, or eliminate or rewrite the various things that depend on the word "marriage" and eliminate government licensure of marraige or civil unions entirely.

That's my opinion, from a libertarian perspective. :)
 

Kirk Keller

New member
I agree with your point completely. It's all about the Benjamins. It would be interesting to see the historical reasoning behind government sanction and licensing of marriage.
 

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Funny, I just typed today: "we wouln't need a presiding official at a wedding. Two adults can enter into a contract without help."

FWIW, I am in favor of contracts being valid for straight, gay or human-martian couples or threesomes or quads for the purpose of breeding, cohabiting or merely reading "The Hobbit" together by the fire...none of the state's business what they do. Fix up the tax code to reflect that, too.

That doesn't mean that I would frown on any other way of doing things. A big church wedding would be equally fine with me...anything that doesn't included mortar shelling of my neighborhood as part of the ceremony is no skin off my nose.
 

priv8ter

New member
I agree

From a purely Libertarian Point of view, I agree with you, Mr. Wilson. Heck, even from a personal view, I agree with you, but by discussing it politcally, maybe we can keep name calling out of it.

I am HUGE Robert Heinlein fan. In at least 4 or 5 of his stories, the main charecter gets married to another charecter just by saying come varient of "I am married to you". No ceremony, no license. I always thought that was like the coolest thing in the world.

Man, I actually got spun all up about marriage licenses from reading your post. My wife and I had to get married in Virginia instead of Connecticut because due to military obligations, I couldn't break loose long enough to have a blood test done. Why should the state CARE what our blood is????

The same gets me(on a much milder subject) when I need county permission here in Washington to build a shed in my back yard. Grrrrrrr!
 

Scott Evans

Staff Alumnus
Have all the personal agreements or contracts that you want … however; such things do not a marriage make. Marriage is a specific type of union between a man and a woman. Other variations to this are just that … agreements other then a marriage. I would concur that the tax code and the idea of a state issued license are off base but the state and the tax code did not originate or define marriage. To use such as the excuse to change the description formally is not valid. You ask that the rest of us pretend that marriage now be something other then it ever has been. It is what it is.
 

gruven

New member
I agree with Scott Evans that "marriage" should be for union between a man and a woman. That's just what the definition IS. Call anything else whatever you want, "Civil Union", "Life Partnership", whatever. It's all good. It's just a pet peeve of mine to change definitions around.

As far as who enters into some sort of union with who though...like everyone else has already said: it's none of my business and none of the government's business!
 

David Scott

New member
I believe that "marriage" as a religious sacrament should be given back to the various faiths, Government should get out of that business, and the religious state of being married should have no meaning or relevance in law. Individual religions could establish their own criteria, and the First Amendment would prohibit government interference in them. If the Church Of Unlimited Light wanted to forbid marriage outside its own faith, for example, that would be OK because the marriage would not be a legal state.

Those who want to achieve the current legal efefcts of marriage should be able to get a civil union from the courthouse at no charge (because government should serve the people). Such a union would be valid for any group of legally competent adults -- if five men wanted to form such a union, or three women and two men, or whatever, they should be able to do so. Their reasons are their business. Individuals could be added to or removed from the union by consent of all parties.

Of course, two people who wanted to marry under their religion's rules could also get a civil union. That would recognize the partnership under both their faith and the law.
 

Betty

New member
A big church wedding would be equally fine with me...anything that doesn't included mortar shelling of my neighborhood as part of the ceremony is no skin off my nose.

But... but sweetheart, couldn't we at least shell the apartments down the street from us? :p

----

It's hard enough finding a man/woman couple staying involved in a decent marriage these days. When I sift through the public record bulletin, the list of divorces is twice as long as the list of marriages. If a gay couple is happy being together and want to get married, who am I to stop them? One of the people I respect most is gay. If he wants to marry his boyfriend, than it's marriage in my book. I like seeing happy couples in a working relationship, no matter what the combo is.

And you shouldn't need a marriage license from the gov't in order to fulfill a marriage contract between two people.
 

Preacherman

New member
Speaking as a pastor, I'd agree 100% that there is no good reason for the Government (whether national, regional or local) to get involved in the business of matrimony. I strongly believe that marriage is a monogamous relationship between one man and one woman, but that is based on my Christian faith and reading of the Bible. Some of my Muslim friends (in other countries, I hasten to add) have more than one wife, and that works fine for them in their system of belief. I know some gay and lesbian couples who want very badly to be married, but also want to be Christian. Unfortunately, I have to call them on that - they can be one, but not the other, in the light of Biblical revelation. (Of course, there are some groups that have "reinterpreted" the Bible to allow for such marriages, but they are not part of any mainstream denomination, and would not be considered Christian by those with more orthodox beliefs.) Still, it's their choice, and I won't deny them their right to choose.

The only reason for the Government to be involved in marriage is taxation, census details, and the registration of children. The latter two items could be dealt with very easily, without taxation, which is purely and simply an opportunity to make money out of the love of two people. When you put it that way, it sounds a lot like prostitution, doesn't it???
 

BigG

New member
This is a real can of worms.

First, I believe that the relationship is between two PEOPLE (of opposite sex), not two people and the state. The state involves itself because of revenue, just like drivers licences. There are also benes/penalties like health ins, income tax, etc.

The religious aspect is fine and dandy, but I would also take away tax exempt status from religious organizations if I were king. Too much phony religious doings out there for my money.

You can have any religion you want or none at all, just do it on your own dime.

Same for sexual preference, just don't call it marriage which already is well defined as noted above.

They used to recognize common law marriage up to very recently which is a verbal contract between individuals. Don't know if it would stand up under IRS scrutiny, though.
 

ojibweindian

New member
The government really has no business in the "business" of marriage.

As to the "right" or "wrong" of same-sex marriage that is, as far as I'm concerned, the business of the couple involved. I will leave my personal opinions on the matter private, unless someone actually cares to hear it.
 

Blackhawk

New member
Lon, it's a matter of money and social mores. Marriages get favorable tax and other benefits that are paid for out of the public trough. That public doesn't want to spend the money on what they perceive to be counterproductive in furthering the survival of the society.

Since you can accomplish the "togetherness" and the whole bit without a recognized marriage, it pretty much boils down to the reason for wanting "civil unions" legally recognized is to gain those financial benefits society gives to traditional married couples.

Forget the money, and be happy.
 

Mute

New member
People can do what they want for all I care. As long as the damn government forces me to provide all the same benefits as would be given to a married man and woman.

Hell, I don't even believe in providing those benefits to "domestic partners." If they don't want to be a part of a "traditional" marriage, fine. Just don't expect me to put my pocketbook behind it.
 

Poodleshooter

New member
As a married man I get special tax priviledges from the pork trough? Where? All I know is that my wife and I don't get as much of a standard deduction as two single people get. Oh, sure we get reduced rates for health insurance-but that's the decision of a private company to extend benefits in that manner, and has no direct relationship to tax law.
 

dischord

New member
dischord wades in with trepidation, recognizing that the pool is filled with at least three big electric eels: politics, religion and sexuality. "Whew," he says, "at least the WoD isn't in there."

Blackhawk,

You are right; it's about social mores and money.

I and my wife get more tax breaks than Lon and his partner because we are acceptible to the religious beliefs of the majority of people. Simply put, I get a tax break because society does not deem my union "sinful."

Bottom line: The government is showing tax favoritism based on religious beliefs.

As an American, it's hard not to have a problem with that no matter what your religious beliefs.

But Lon's right: Getting the government out of the religious ceremony is probably a better third way...

...that and getting rid of most of the taxes in the first place, maritial and sexual status beside the point.

+++++++++

Others,

As for not calling it a "marriage," fine. But that does not get rid of the question of whether two people who have committed themselves, with witnesses and signed paper, to a common life, common income and common property should be treated differently tax-wise than another two people who have committed themselves, with witnesses and signed paper, to a common life, common income and common property.

That's kind of like saying Buddhist temples should not be tax-exempt because Buddhists do not worship a supernatural, higher-being creator.
 

BigG

New member
Dischord: you may be right that by giving tax advantages to hetero marriages gomt is discriminating against homosexual unions on the basis of religion but it may be that just about any viable country over the centuries has not endorsed homosexuality for the simple reason that there is no procreation. No procreation, pretty soon the population ages and gets beaten by the barbarians or whoever. Scratch another country.

Poodleshooter, even though your standard deduction may be less I think your married tax tables start at a higher level before the tax percentages go up.
 

dischord

New member
BigG,

I certainly hope you are not making the argument that giving the same tax benefits to homosexual unions will lead to lower procreation among us heterosexuals.
 

Drjones

New member
that just about any viable country over the centuries has not endorsed homosexuality for the simple reason that there is no procreation.

There are FAR too many people on this planet right now, and they show no signs of ceasing to mate. (Guess its too much fun! :p )

Too many orphaned children out there today. Lots of homosexuals want to adopt.

What's wrong with that?

I like gays, and have no problem with marriages between them, to address the post.
 
You're a guy, and you want to marry a guy?

You're a woman, and want to marry a woman?

Fine with me. Just don't ask me to marry a guy. Not my cup of tea.

Quite frankly, though, if I don't want to pay for a marriage license, all I have to do is live with the woman for I think 7 years (in some states, IIRC) and it's a legally recognized common-law marriage.

Do I think homosexuals are a threat to the American family?

No more so than Democrats and some of the crap they've come up with over the years.

Gay couples want to adopt kids?

Lots of kids need adopting.

As for the concept of marriage being a religious thing... Hum...

There's been some pretty interesting work done over the last 20 years that indicates that gay marriages were often blessed by the church (Catholic Church, the only one back then) and looked on a lot more favorably than the arranged marriages of the time, which had nothing to do with love and everything to do with power and wealth.


When you get right down to it, a marriage is a LOT more than just a definition staring up from a page in the dictionary. It's a concept about wanting to share your life with someone because you love him/her.

Why that should be limited to a male/female union is completely beyond me.
 
"you may be right that by giving tax advantages to hetero marriages gomt is discriminating against homosexual unions"

Tax advantages?

When my ex-wife and I were married, it looked suspiciously like a marriage PENALTY, than you very much.

Then again, being married to her was also a penalty, thank you very much.
 
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