MADDOW: NRA in Freefall

[Bartholomew Roberts]

TBM900, the reason I say the NRA is the only pro-2A organization that understands that is because they are the only ones teaching gun safety, range safety, and promoting places where people who want to shoot can.

It doesn’t matter how much the John Wick video resonates with the current culture if there is no place to go shoot or nothing to shoot with. Even states that think the NRA is the devil incarnate rely on the NRA for safety advice. After the Supreme Court ruling in McDonald, the city of Chicago refused to let any gun range operate anywhere in the city. So you had the right to own a gun in the city; but no place to legally shoot it without leaving the city.

While several pro-2A groups helped with litigating that problem, there was only one that had the existing infrastructure and knowledge base to actually build a safe range within the Chicago city limits that would survive the intense scrutiny IF the litigation was successful

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Furthermore, your average suburban gun owner is a lot more likely to own a gun for self-defense than they are to own a gun for hunting or recreation - because there aren’t a lot of places that combine safely using a firearm with a fun experience in suburbia.

Oh, how true.

I live in the northeast, in what is now a suburb. (It was a rural, farming community when my parents built the house, on what was a remote corner of my great-grandmother's farm.) My town has an ordinance prohibiting the discharge of any firearm, BB gun, pellet gun, or bow and arrow anywhere in town. A number of other towns and cities around the state have similar ordinances. There are NO free, public ranges in this state.

For me to shoot, I have to drive 45 minutes to an indoor range. There is another, newer one that's a few minutes closer, but not enough closer to make me switch. No rifles other than rimfire. Longest distance is 25 yards. There are gun clubs around the state with outdoor ranges that typically go up to 100 yards, but they are prohibitively expensive, require varying amounts of volunteer time (which is understandable, but I don't have the time), and they all require a recommendation by at least two current members and they have waiting lists ranging from three to ten years. When I really feel the urge to shoot rifles, I call up a friend in another state and invite myself to visit him for a weekend.

People who live in other parts of the country, where there is more, easier, and less expensive access to shooting venues, have no comprehension of how difficult it is to be involved in shooting sports in some of the most heavily populated regions of the country.

There are other factors that make it even less convenient. For example, I live half an hour west of the VA hospital where I get much of my health care. The range where I shoot is half an hour east of the VA hospital. It would be great if I could toss my range bag in the car, go to an appointment, and then continue on to the range. BUT ... federal law prohibits possession of firearms on VA property. I wanted to shoot yesterday, and I had a 12:00 appointment at the VA hospital. I had to go to the hospital, then backtrack to home to pick up my gun and range gear, and then retrace (partially) the route I had just driven to go to the range.

Being a shooter around here is not a casual sport. You have to really WANT to shoot, and make some serious commitments and compromises.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

And to drive the point home, imagine you find the John Wick video very compelling and so you go to your average suburban range which is indoors, hopefully decently ventilated and not overcrowded, probably has a 25yd max range and the kind of lowest-common-denominator strict safety rules that get created when someone with minimal experience tries to unsuccessfully duplicate what they saw in a Taran Butler video.

How is that person going to feel about shooting then?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Can't blame the ranges for needing to have safety rules.

A couple of years ago, at the indoor range, I went downstairs to the actual range area and, as I walked in, I saw a father with his young son. Great, right? No ... NOT great. The kid wasn't tall enough to see over the bench, so the father had gone out to the spectator area and brought in one of those molded plastic patio chairs (you know -- the ones that have legs the collapse if you lean back in them) and had the kid standing on this flimsy chair to shoot.

Like the chairs in this image: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41GjF9Fo52L.jpg

I'm not a range officer for this range, but I am a certified range safety officer, and I didn't even take the time to go upstairs and rat the guy out. I just told him to stop doing that RIGHT NOW. (The range owner later thanked me.)

Some people don't have enough brains to come in out of the rain ... and they breed.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Certainly, ranges need rules. And the closer you are to population centers, the more your rules will have to be designed around idiots because population density means you’ll encounter idiots more frequently.

My complaint is with ranges that do a “one size fits all” set of rules geared to the lowest common denominator. In a large urban area like Dallas, that is basically assuming every customer is a halfwit who will attempt to kill you and whether it was intentional will be the only unknown.

Instead ranges should be taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun; but not trying to drive a Ford GT at 200mph on the track their first day.

That’s a win for the 2A, a win for the customer, and a win for the range who can charge extra for such certifications and training. But it also requires a trained, knowledgable staff and proper range facilities.

 

[SIGSHR]

Following the passage of the 1994 AWB pundits were crowing the NRA was "finished." It probably could use a house cleaning such as occurred in Cleveland in 1977.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Following the passage of the 1994 AWB pundits were crowing the NRA was "finished." It probably could use a house cleaning such as occurred in Cleveland in 1977.

Not possible. (Or at least exceedingly unlikely and difficult.) They (meaning the inner clique) "fixed" the by-laws about three (or so) years ago to ensure that such shenanigans by the membership can't possibly happen again. The deck is now completely stacked against the membership at large.

 

[Nathan]

Instead ranges should be taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun; but not trying to drive a Ford GT at 200mph on the track their first day.

Maybe rent them a rubber pellet shooting gun the first time, steel BB gun the next time, then 22 cb the 3rd, then 22 lr, .....after a few times with 22lr, then they can rent a real gun?

Ok, as long as I can test out by showing the staff my competence in about 10s.

 

[JERRYS.]

WLP is in it for himself. he might say otherwise, but if you look at the damage of him staying on when he's been passed it for some time vs. new blood coming in, he clearly doesn't care about anything but his ego. this is what has gotten the NRA to the point it is right now. he knows it, the democrats know it, and "we" are the ones that will take the fall. in fact, with all the latest anti 2nd amendment legislation at various levels you will find the NRA leadership trying to satisfy itself and not fighting battles in court.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Maybe rent them a rubber pellet shooting gun the first time, steel BB gun the next time, then 22 cb the 3rd, then 22 lr, .....after a few times with 22lr, then they can rent a real gun?

Well, considering small children are smart enough to go directly to shooting firearms, I don’t think that progression is necessary. However, your average public range shooter doesn’t have the skill base to be working from the holster (and sometimes those who do let their skill base lapse), so before I would let some random joe walk-in off the street and start working on his fast draw, I would probably require a short class and I would probably have them on a separate range than the general public if feasible.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

My complaint is with ranges that do a “one size fits all” set of rules geared to the lowest common denominator. In a large urban area like Dallas, that is basically assuming every customer is a halfwit who will attempt to kill you and whether it was intentional will be the only unknown.

Instead ranges should be taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun; but not trying to drive a Ford GT at 200mph on the track their first day.

There's a difference between a public (or private club) range where people are shooting whatever they brought, using whatever ammo they bought or brought, vs an instructional setting where students are being instructed on certain techniques and are being led through them under close supervision by the instructional cadre. I thought this discussion was about the former. "... taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun" is the latter, and IMHO that's a completely different situation.

At a public or private range during times when the range is open for general shooting, there may be anywhere from a dozen to two dozen (or more) shooting stations/lanes, and maybe two or three range safety officers trying to keep an eye on everyone. The RSOs are there as safety officers, not as instructors. They can't take one shooter by the hand -- if they do that, they can't do their job, which is watching everyone to ensure that the range's rules are followed.

 

[Nathan]

However, your average public range shooter doesn’t have the skill base to be working from the holster (and sometimes those who do let their skill base lapse), so before I would let some random joe walk-in off the street and start working on his fast draw, I would probably require a short class and I would probably have them on a separate range than the general public if feasible.

Interesting. I find all kinds of public/private range shooters not competent enough not to point their guns at me. But ymmv.

To me, this is the biggest thing that the nra has done and continues to do....establishment the rules, foundation, education system and materials to run a safe range with people slightly more competent than idiots at each most levels. Without the NRA, I would be laughed at asking people not to handle guns while people are downrange or to not point there “unloaded” guns at me.

 

[reynolds357]

There's a difference between a public (or private club) range where people are shooting whatever they brought, using whatever ammo they bought or brought, vs an instructional setting where students are being instructed on certain techniques and are being led through them under close supervision by the instructional cadre. I thought this discussion was about the former. "... taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun" is the latter, and IMHO that's a completely different situation.

At a public or private range during times when the range is open for general shooting, there may be anywhere from a dozen to two dozen (or more) shooting stations/lanes, and maybe two or three range safety officers trying to keep an eye on everyone. The RSOs are there as safety officers, not as instructors. They can't take one shooter by the hand -- if they do that, they can't do their job, which is watching everyone to ensure that the range's rules are followed.

People are a lot smarter than most people give them credit for. I am a member of a gun club that has every range you can imagine. No range officers present except on days registered competition shoots are going on. 99.9% of the time no range officer is present. 1400 members, open to non members. In the 40+ years in operation, there has only been one noteable injury. It was someone getting run over by a car in the parking lot. The rule that works is common sense. Those lacking it, get run off.

 

[J.G. Terry]

We have a large private club with strict rules. This past Thursday a citizen came and asked if we could go cold. I explained how the my gun had malfunction and was technically loaded. He snorted and walked onto the range. When he came back there were words. He said that I could have taken the loaded rifle to my car etc. That was not a diplomatic comment. Some people are hopeless no matter where.

Added: The NRA TV, like it or not, was becoming more radical. This is one of the reasons people left in flocks. It would be a good thing to come up with some solid information on motivations for leaving. This would exclude name calling etc. I'd say that the looting was a cause but not the cause of the exodus. Where does the buck stop at the NRA

 

[mehavey]

....my gun had malfunction and was technically loaded. He snorted and
walked onto the range. When he came back there were words. He said
that I could have taken the loaded rifle to my car....

`Scuse me ?
Where was (or is there) an RSO?

Do I assume correctly that he deliberately walked out onto the range ahead of an unclear firing line?

 

[J.G. Terry]

RSO: That is a serious short fall at that range. The Fat Lady has not sang on
this one yet.

 

[Unclenick]

What gives the NRA its political clout is that its membership votes and votes almost unerringly the way the NRA asks it to. Yes, money matters in politics, but the ability to get out the vote matters most. NRA members treat 2nd Amendment rights as single-issue voters, but the average anti-gun voter does not treat gun control as a single-issue voter, so their results are less focussed. For them, it is usually just one of several items on their social change agenda. So while everyone speaks with legitimate frustration about the NRA's organizational problems, keep in mind that unified voting is still the most important thing it does for gun rights and that none of the other organizations mentioned can hold a candle to the size of its membership or its ability to cause consternation among elected officials. Dropping out of the NRA to punish its management may bring some measure of "I told you so" satisfaction, but diminishing its membership numbers may be all it takes to convince politicians not to worry so much about how its membership votes. That may defeat all we've worked for over the last 30 years, in particular.

I was at the '93 NRA Annual Meeting when LaPierre convinced the membership he should be immune from being voted out of office. I think that was a bad decision for morale. The membership's ability to change things by vote has been sorely and repeatedly diminished by the board and I think that has alienated a lot of people to whom it was obvious that the organization had become the object of empire-building.

On the other hand, that empire-building grew the membership in leaps and bounds, and that's where the political clout comes from. So much as I dislike the tactics used to get us where we are, I don't want to see even one fewer votes cast against gun controllers because of internal disunity.

Also, in addition to living too well, the folks at the top have also paid a price. LaPierre has been "swatted" by anti-gunners calling in a fake emergency at his home, claiming he'd killed his wife and was armed and dangerous. Chris Cox got out not just because of internal NRA politics but in part because anti-gun fanatics have thrown fake blood all over his house—twice. The anti-gunners are nothing if not willing to resort to physical intimidation in their exercise of intolerance of opinions that differ from their own. Control by censorship of dissenting opinion is a primary "progressive" tactic.

This background and interview with LaPierre in the New York Times Magazine, is not flattering, as you might expect, given the source, but supplies some "other sides" to what has been going on that are worth looking at.

 

[J.G. Terry]

Trust issue

Where does the buck stop at the NRA? What you got is a basic trust issue. What has Wayne and crew done since this scandal broke. I'm a gone from that mess. Bring me up to date. What improvements have been made. Is the organization more transparent. Has there been an audit. Does anybody have any idea how much money is/was misspent or diverted? How is this trust issue to be resolved?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

People are a lot smarter than most people give them credit for. I am a member of a gun club that has every range you can imagine. No range officers present except on days registered competition shoots are going on. 99.9% of the time no range officer is present. 1400 members, open to non members. In the 40+ years in operation, there has only been one noteable injury. It was someone getting run over by a car in the parking lot. The rule that works is common sense. Those lacking it, get run off.

My comment was in response to the comment about "... taking their John Wick fans by the hand and improving their skills in a way that their customers are experiencing something novel and fun." How does your club regard people practicing their John Wick gun handling skills at the club range?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, Aguila, I don’t think you understood the intent of my remark. But instead of repeatedly clarifying it and derailing this thread, I thought I’d let it drop.

My general intent wasn’t that RSOs babysit; but that ranges offer classes to help build their users skill base (which many ranges do); but that once those shooters demonstrate those skills, you stop treating them by the lowest common denominator rules.

Bringing this full circle, the suburban interest in self-defense is going to be a major driver for future shooters. Accessible range use is going to play a part in that; but just having the range is only part of it. There has to be a path for those who want to grow to grow, preferably without driving two hours and joining a private range.