MADDOW: NRA in Freefall

[zukiphile]

Believe it or not, but there's millions of democrats who own guns, hunt, target shoot, and support the Second Amendment. You can't survive without them.

You can’t survive with them if they continue to vote for candidates who want to destroy the Second Amendment despite all their hypothetical support.

One's choices in terms of potential office holders will generally be binary. Someone who hunts and says he supports the 2d Am. while voting for candidates of a party that is the home of gun prohibitionists has made a choice that doesn't help 2d Am. rights.

Yes, the NRA has problems. Not problems as dire as those of the SPLC or the ACLU, but problems none the less. Abstaining from rights advocacy because you are disappointed in the primary electoral advocate for the right is puerile and ineffective. It may make some feel better, but politics aren't about one's feelings.

Read this response from GOA/VCDL to AG Herring's opinion on Second Amendment Sanctuaries
Then compare it to a typical NRA response

Let's not confuse electoral efficacy with who most closely matches our own views. Hardly anyone knows who Larry Pratt is and even fewer care. That isn't to demean him or you, but to note that he is a little fish. little fish aren't scary.

They prey on the fear and ignorance of gun owners in order to rake in big $$$$ while producing next to nothing in return.

NRA people responded after Sandy Hook when some of the Admins here were arguing the merits of public silence on the issue. NRA people responded to the post Parkland media offensive when people were shy about criticizing a public message spoken by "children". Following Las Vegas, the only federal action was a dubious bumpstock restriction.

The NRA has had a hand at the federal level in no legislation being produced, which is exactly the amount of legislation with which you might trust congress.

It's great that you support the GOA. Advocacy support doesn't need to be a single choice and different organizations can play different roles. Hostility toward the biggest advocate because you think a minor one does a better job isn't a choice compelled by logic.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Let's not forget the topic of this thread:

Maddow claimed that the troubles at the NRA are not only a "huge deal" but a
"show-stopping deal," pointing to its shutdown of NRATV. "The once fearsome
NRA, the most powerful entity in conservative politics... I mean, they're in free-fall,"

I received confirmation (to my satisfaction, your mileage may vary) of just how hard up and on the rocks the NRA is. I'm writing this at 8:30 p.m. on December 26 -- the day after Christmas. A couple of hours ago, my landline telephone rang. Foolishly, I ignored my usual protocol and answered, rather than letting the answering machine do its thing.

The caller was a woman calling on behalf of the NRA. She said she was conducting a survey. (Hint: that's their standard gambit these days. It's always a survey -- a one-question survey with answers so obvious that you can tell immediately that they don't really care what you answer. They have you on the phone, and talking.) Immediately after the "survey," she launched into the real reason for the call (she didn't say that -- I said that): the fundraising pitch. But they've upped the ante. I'm accustomed to their asking for fifty bucks, then dropping to twenty-five and then fifteen if you don't sign on for fifty. Today she started at one hundred fifty dollars.

That's as far as we went. I told her that under no circumstances would I donate any more money to the NRA as long as Wayne LaPierre remains as the Executive Vice President.

She couldn't end the call fast enough.

This, to me, shows desperation. Making fundraising calls on the evening following Christmas is desperate, insensitive, tone deaf -- however you choose to characterize it. The NRA IS in trouble. They know that Wayne LaPierre is toxic, but he is so well entranched that nobody can force him out, and he doesn't have to common decency to just retire [semi-] gracefully.

 

[TBM900]

Hostility toward the biggest advocate because you think a minor one does a better job isn't a choice compelled by logic.

Except for the fact that I stated no such thing

 

[reynolds357]

LaPierre has given everyone a reason not to like him. Unfortunately that reflects on the NRA as well.
Whether you like the NRA or not, they are still the best chance gun owners have to buck the democrats and liberals who want to disarm the population because they refuse to do anything about criminals.
We will NOT be better off without the NRA. And if they do fail and cease to exist you can expect your 2nd Amendment rights to follow them.
What other organization does as much to preserve the 2nd Amendment?
What other organization spends as much towards pro-gun causes?
There is more on the line than just your membership or dislike for LaPierre.

It is of utmost importance to have a strong NRA at this moment in history. To ensure that strength, every member should demand the firing of LaPierre. I wrote them and told them on the phone that I will not renew my membership nor contribute 1more cent until he is fired.
There must be a tearing down to build back a strong organization.

 

[ATN082268]

If the NRA goes belly up, who cares? If it happens existing and/or new organizations will fill the void. Where do you think existing NRA donations will go?

 

[NobodyJones]

Honestly, I am surprised that because of my anti-Wayne LaPierre post and my refusing to rejoin the NFPA because of him and Ted Nugent, that I wasn't publicly tarred and feathered.

I wish they could fix their problems and become a reliable public voice for firearm owners once again. Sadly I just don't see that happening.

 

[TBM900]

I missed this part of your post yesterday...

Let's not confuse electoral efficacy with who most closely matches our own views. Hardly anyone knows who Larry Pratt is and even fewer care. That isn't to demean him or you, but to note that he is a little fish. little fish aren't scary.

If you are implying that as a "big fish" the NRA is scary to the left...
Well you truly are out of touch

I do not mean that as a personal insult
But rather as a state of being... of most of the gun community

THE LEFT DOES NOT FEAR THE NRA
Not in any way shape or form

The left actually likes the NRA right where they are...
Weak
Ineffective
Vacuuming up cash
And placating gun owners
All while giving their base a common enemy to "freeze, polarize, and attack"
They know they are already winning by attrition, the NRA is simply a minor distraction

Now what is currently happening in VA, you best bet that worries them to a certain extent

But make no mistake, what is being done there by the left is another 3D chess move on their part. They are pushing just to see what kind of reaction we muster, they are "probing the lines" so to speak.

 

[TBM900]

Honestly, I am surprised that because of my anti-Wayne LaPierre post and my refusing to rejoin the NFPA because of him and Ted Nugent, that I wasn't publicly tarred and feathered.

I wish they could fix their problems and become a reliable public voice for firearm owners once again. Sadly I just don't see that happening.

A different time, a different forum, you very well might be. I regularly get burned at the stake and called every nome in the book for daring to be critical of them. But I believe many gun owners are starting to see the light regarding the NRA and their ways.

They have been at the helm for decades as the ship slowly sinks, and some will argue that the ship would already be on the bottom if it weren't for the NRA. But I see otherwise and I believe many are starting to see the light as well as well.

 

[zxcvbob]

The NRA has done a lot of good. WLP has done a lot of good. But the perception now (it may not be true but I think it is) is that Wayne has been using NRA funds as his own personal piggy bank, tried to steal money from NR-ILA for the general fund (so he could mismanage that too), and has a cozy agreement with law firms and advertisement agencies that looks highly suspicious if not conflicts of interest. And the BoD just sits on their hands. Whether it's true or not, Wayne needs to leave for the good of the organization because he's toxic right now; that he doesn't speaks volumes.

I've trusted used car salesmen a lot more than I trust WLP. I suspect he and some of the board members should spend a couple of years in prison. Maybe what's left of the NRA can then do that phoenix thing.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If you are implying that as a "big fish" the NRA is scary to the left...
Well you truly are out of touch

I do not mean that as a personal insult
But rather as a state of being... of most of the gun community

THE LEFT DOES NOT FEAR THE NRA
Not in any way shape or form

I think that's the point. The left used to fear the NRA, when the left knew that the NRA could mobilize millions of votes. Now that the NRA is self-immolating, the left is like a bunch of sharks smelling blood in the water.

And that's the primary issue with LaPierre, and his main sycophants on the board of directors -- they are putting their own selfish interests above the interests of the organization. LaPierre should be able to see (and I think he does) that, regardless of whether or not his closet is devoid of skeletons, he is toxic. He is now a divisive element rather than a rallying point. If he actually cared about the NRA and the Second Amendment, he would retire "for the good of the service" and let the reins go to a new leader who can unite the organization and get it back on track.

The fact that LaPierre refuses to retire is (IMHO) proof positive that he doesn't care about the NRA or the Second Amendment, he only cares about Wayne LaPierre.

The "old" NRA was regarded as the 800 pound gorilla in the room. If the NRA goes under, what pro-gun pro-2A organization is poised to take on that role? I don't think the SAF or GOA is prepared for such a role, and (again IMHO) there's simply nobody else waiting in the wings as the understudy.

 

[TBM900]

I could not agree more.

As for "taking over the role"...
I do not believe it needs to be, or even should be a singular entity.
The left has great success locally and regionally, and historically larger numbers of smaller groups being more wide spread tended to be some of the most effective (think gorilla tactics).

Look to the TEA Party movement a decade ago, it scared the crap out of both sides as they could not control it. Politicians on the right by and large hated it as much as the ones on the left. It collapsed in large part due to the lefts control of the media and the constant 24/7 belittlement of its supporters, average joe/jane citizen just got tired of being called racists, nazi's, stupid, etc, and did not have the willpower to hang in.

They gave up

If gun owners, Constitutionalists, Liberty advocates, Etc could muster the same excitement and hang in for the long haul, we could pull it off (the saving of the Republic). I just don't know if "we" have the willpower yet, I'm leaning towards not. That's why I truly believe the collapse of the NRA could be a good thing as it might finally be the slap in the face that motivates more to get involved and in more meaningful, effective ways.

Collectively our side is absurdly apathetic and lazy, that is a fact

I belong to a large number of gun/sporting/outdoor forums, most of which I joined back in the mid to late 90's (I'm really not that old....am I ) The steady decline I've seen over these many years, along with the utter denial I see of supposed "Liberty minded individuals" towards our current state and direction is truly frightening to me. On our current course we WILL lose all of our gun rights along with a great many other Liberty's.

Some call that negative, pessimistic, defeatist, etc... I call it reality.

When Lt Col Moore called in artillery and air strikes on his own positions at La Drang, was he being a defeatist? Nope He simply recognized the position they were in, he knew the dire straits, and did what he thought most effective even though it was brutal. I believe we are in a similar sort of position with our dying Liberty, if collectively we do not recognize how screwed we are, and take drastic measures now... we're done.

I think that's the point. The left used to fear the NRA, when the left knew that the NRA could mobilize millions of votes. Now that the NRA is self-immolating, the left is like a bunch of sharks smelling blood in the water.

And that's the primary issue with LaPierre, and his main sycophants on the board of directors -- they are putting their own selfish interests above the interests of the organization. LaPierre should be able to see (and I think he does) that, regardless of whether or not his closet is devoid of skeletons, he is toxic. He is now a divisive element rather than a rallying point. If he actually cared about the NRA and the Second Amendment, he would retire "for the good of the service" and let the reins go to a new leader who can unite the organization and get it back on track.

The fact that LaPierre refuses to retire is (IMHO) proof positive that he doesn't care about the NRA or the Second Amendment, he only cares about Wayne LaPierre.

The "old" NRA was regarded as the 800 pound gorilla in the room. If the NRA goes under, what pro-gun pro-2A organization is poised to take on that role? I don't think the SAF or GOA is prepared for such a role, and (again IMHO) there's simply nobody else waiting in the wings as the understudy.

 

[Mainah]

You'll know the NRA crisis is serious when a Republican pro-gun politician rejects their campaign contributions for the reasons outlined well in this thread. And before they run out of money. I'm not holding my breath.

If I had to guess I'd say that Wayne has a finger to the wind and he's busy sewing up a nice golden parachute while hoping for a Democrat to beat Trump in 2020. He doesn't care as much about our rights as he does about scaring us. That's worked out pretty well for him so far.

 

[Nathan]

It is this simple. The NRA is weakened by the current leadership. Bloomberg and his chrony’s have gone full money dump to promote this weakness.

The NRA needs to reorganize under new leadership and new rules to revitalize the board. It is a great organization, but without strength and representation of its members, it will fall.

We as gun owners need to comeback and crush Bloomberg as well as start naming our own political candidates. We need to quit supporting the weak candidates that don’t aggressively go after gun control elimination.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

If I had to guess I'd say that Wayne has a finger to the wind and he's busy sewing up a nice golden parachute while hoping for a Democrat to beat Trump in 2020.

My understanding, from articles that came out fairly early in the course of the internal squabbles staring to go public, is that Wayne already has a dandy golden parachute.

 

[J.G. Terry]

It's all about money!

It's all about money: I feel duped by the avalanche of it's the end of the world gun talk. While this talk was going on the NRA insiders were stuffing their pockets with cash. Nobody, I mean nobody, is going to convince me that the looting was a one man job. You got to give Wayne and the clique points for being able to circle the wagons when the issues of misspent money came up. When the looting issue comes up, it is countered with they'll get your guns. What a con job. I'd say much of the NRA's problems has to do with people being played for suckers. Others will defend to the end Wayne and the others. Those guys are defending our rights! The insiders get the the "gold mine" and the outsiders get the "shaft." Wayne and the crew are making water on your back and calling it rain.

 

[Tony Z]

WE ARE THE NRA! If we keep supporting the organization with our dues and if we are lifers and not voicing our opinions, the organization will not change! How about a mass resignation of members? That would be a scary scenario for the leftists, as they will see gun owners as still supporting the original mission of the NRA & still united.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The people who make up the NRA are still there, even if the NRA goes away. And for that matter, as much as the anti-2A crowd hates the NRA, they really won’t like what replaces it.

Neither will politicians, particularly the GOP politicians who believe the NRA’s opposition to registration a.k.a universal background checks and confiscation without due process a.k.a red flag laws are costing them the votes of the “You’ll shoot your eye out” crowd in suburbia.

Because that’s the perceived battleground now... suburban moms. Bloomberg has convinced Republicans and Democrats both that suburban moms want gun control - partly because Bloomberg encourages reporters to terrorize suburban moms by playing up every story of guns being used to shoot up Walmarts or schools in the attempt to create a moral panic that doesn’t reflect more common threats.

The Democrats reaction has been to go full unmasked gun grabber. However, the GOP is grumbling quite a bit about losing the House majority and they would happily give us both UBCs and red flag laws if they thought they could regain it.

I mean, there are candidates running for statewide office in 2020 on a “We are going to ban the AR15” platform in Texas. At a base level, we have to diminush that fear in the suburbs because that is the growth area for future 2A expansion and the source of our recent political weakness both.

I took out a couple who fits that demographic - suburban, educated. Guy owns guns. Wife hates guns and doesn’t want them in the house or the kids touching them. We broke out an air rifle and shot tin cans in the backyard.

Once she saw it could be a positive bonding experience for the whole family and not just a needless risk sitting in the garage waiting to bite her family, she was more willing to consider other points of view on the matter. I wouldn’t say she’s converted by any means; but her opinions on firearms have certainly shifted and more importantly, she understands she has been deceived by the media.

If we are going to change the culture, that’s how it will happen and the NRA is the only pro-2A organization that actually understands that - whatever its faults might be.

 

[USNRet93]

However, the GOP is grumbling quite a bit about losing the House majority and they would happily give us both UBCs and red flag laws if they thought they could regain it.

Speaks volumes..if a few would just have 'the courage of their convictions' and not just worried about being professional liars so they get re-elected..

Once she saw it could be a positive bonding experience for the whole family and not just a needless risk sitting in the garage waiting to bite her family, she was more willing to consider other points of view on the matter. I wouldn’t say she’s converted by any means; but her opinions on firearms have certainly shifted and more importantly, she understands she has been deceived by the media.

Copy to Wayne LP and the NRA...'positive bonding experience', safety oriented fun, not the 'bad guy with a gun', warfare, combat, scare tactics..

I took out a couple who fits that demographic - suburban, educated. Guy owns guns.

Bet he doesn't belong to the NRA...another in the (guessing) YUGE, un affiliated politically, middle....

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Copy to Wayne LP and the NRA...'positive bonding experience', safety oriented fun, not the 'bad guy with a gun', warfare, combat, scare tactics..

Why would WLP follow that strategy when the failure of that strategy is exactly what caused the first NRA revolution? People are complicated creatures. You need a strategy that is multi-pronged.

Furthermore, your average suburban gun owner is a lot more likely to own a gun for self-defense than they are to own a gun for hunting or recreation - because there aren’t a lot of places that combine safely using a firearm with a fun experience in suburbia.

You blame the NRA for “combat scare tactics” but the NRA plays an important role in educating gun owners about the realities of self-defense with a firearm so that they don’t do stupid things that hurt the 2A like leaving firearms unsecured in vehicles or waving your gun at people like a magic talisman.

I’d suggest what you see as “scare tactics” is more an attempt to address and promote good practices in the single fastest growing segment of the shooting public. Kids who spent their youth playing “Call of Duty” don’t really care about shooting deer or 10m air rifle for the most part. They want to shoot an AR15. And we are fast approaching the technological point where they’ll have one if they want it, legal or not. So at a policy level, we’re really just discussing how ignorant they are going to be when that happens.

 

[TBM900]

The people who make up the NRA are still there, even if the NRA goes away. And for that matter, as much as the anti-2A crowd hates the NRA, they really won’t like what replaces it.

Agreed
I believe this is where the collapse of the NRA would be a huge win for 2A rights
Replace them with really pissed off people ready for a proper (legal) fight to protect rights
A gorilla style political street fight in every state and major city is something the left would struggle countering

Neither will politicians, particularly the GOP politicians who believe the NRA’s opposition to registration a.k.a universal background checks and confiscation without due process a.k.a red flag laws are costing them the votes of the “You’ll shoot your eye out” crowd in suburbia.

Correct
Your words proven true by yet another useless "R" promoting more 2A infringements
Bobby Orrock Republican VA pushing FOID

If we are going to change the culture, that’s how it will happen and the NRA is the only pro-2A organization that actually understands that

On this one I will have to completely disagree with you
The NRA does not understand that, not at any level, they are completely out of touch
The leadership is out of touch
The structure of the organization is out of touch
The vast majority of the membership is out of touch

Unfortunately our culture has shifted so far that the quaint image of a father and son going hunting is nearly gone
Sure there are many that still do it, but those numbers are dwindling fast
For every contrary anecdote, there are ten more kids with their face glued to a smart phone
That is simple reality, the culture has shifted, and it continues to shift

Thus the NRA can do all the restructuring and rebranding they like, they will always be the "Fudds" of the firearm community
On the flip side there are other organizations, and many are more "in step" with current culture than the NRA
Further, new organizations can and should be started that are more in line with todays kids and young adults

Here is a quick example, which video is more in step with 2020, and would attract more youth...

VIDEO A

VIDEO B