M1 Carbine

[COSteve]

Deaf Smith does have an interesting point, however, his numbers aren't quite complete and he's omitted some interesting information as well.

Hodgdon lists 110grn 357mag at 2,398fps, Buffalo Bore sells 125grn 357mag that produces 2,298fps, and 158grn 357mag that produces 2,153fps; all from a 18.5" levergun. I should note that my chrono data from my 20" carbine and 24" rifle shows that the 24" rifle produces 30-40fps faster velocities than the 20" so I'm betting that a 20" produces faster velocities than a 18.5" one does too.

Yes, the flatter nose on the pistol bullet will produce more drag at distance, however, that is totally irrelevant at 100 or even 200yds when comparing the 30 carbine bullet fired from an M1 Carbine to a 357mag bullet fired from a Rossi levergun. Why, you ask?

I own and shoot M1 Carbines and 357mag Rossi leverguns. I handload for both and produce high quality, accurate ammo for both. Even though my new Auto Ordance is hands down more accurate than my GI '43 NPM with my handloads, the 30 Carbine rd isn't an accurate load in any carbine. Groups of 3-4" at 100yds are considered excellent for a M1 Carbine.

Compare that to my Rossis shooting my handloads which produce groups less than 2" at 100yds. The 357mag cartridge is considerably more accurate so at longer ranges above 100yds, the 30 Carbine may have more velocity left but is much more likely to miss the target.

At closer range, say under 50yds, the higher weight and larger size of the 357mag bullet produces significantly more muzzle energy than the 30 Carbine. From a SD or HD standpoint, the 30 Carbine, even with a JSP bullet, can't touch the performance of a 110, 125, 140, or 158grn 357mag bullet fired from a 20" carbine barrel.

The only advantage the M1 Carbine has over the levergun is that it's a semi-auto. Again, I have both. I shoot both. And ballistically, the 357mag, fired from a levergun is superior to the 30 Carbine in every way possible.

 

[COSteve]

Despite the above, the M1 Carbine is an outstanding addition to anyone's collection. It's fun to shoot and a great plinker. Many find it a perfect HD weapon as their wives find it easy to handle and aren't afraid of the recoil.

Further, it's significantly more compact than an AR and it's muzzle blast and flash is considerably less than an AR's as well, making it a preferable HD choice to the AR is my book.

With 2ea ARs, 2ea M1 Carbines, and 2ea Rossi 357mag leverguns, I can choose any of them to shoot. My choice of an M1 Carbine and/or a Rossi over an AR to take to the range is common. Both are just more fun to shoot than the AR.

 

[amd6547]

Not accurate? Tnoutdoors9 shows it to be plenty accurate at 300yds, for a weapon designed to replace a pistol.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozvYaxr6iQ

 

[Deaf Smith]

Hodgdon lists 110grn 357mag at 2,398fps, Buffalo Bore sells 125grn 357mag that produces 2,298fps, and 158grn 357mag that produces 2,153fps; all from a 18.5" levergun.

110grn 357mag at 2,398fps  Sierra 110 JHC 'Bliz'.

                   vel. fps     energy(f/lb)
Muzzle         2400           1407
100 yards      1752           749
200 yards*     1296           410

Buffalo Bore 125grn 357mag that produces 2,298fps

                   vel. fps     energy(f/lb)
Muzzle            2300       1468
100 yards         1725        826
200 yards*        1312        478

Buffalo Bore 158grn 357mag that produces 2,153fps

                   vel. fps     energy(f/lb)
Muzzle            2200       1698    <--- ** 
100 yards         1603        902
200 yards*        1273        569

* extrapolated from the Sierra Handgun Reloading Manual 3ed Edition
due to it having a 150 yard and 250 yard but no 200 yard velocity or
energy.
** gave it 47 fps due to manual having increments only in 100 fps.


So in reality ONLY the Buffalo Bore 158 grain load would be significantly better. But go try to find that load in any store. BUT... note also I gave that load 47 fps it didn't have to begin with. And the trajectory is still not as flat as the Carbine (Sierra's manual does not have a 100 yard sightin.)

The carbine's real advantage is firepower. Not only in amount of ammo carried, speed of reloading, but also in the speed one can fire in a defensive situation, that is rounds per second. One can touch off three very fast shots and no lever action can fire that fast and be even slightly accurate.

Also the Carbine is in a 5.5 lb configuration (that is, a very light rifle.) It also can be fired at odd angles. That is most lever actions will jam if fired from canted positions, or upside down for that matter. Carbine won't!!!

Also the Carbine does not heat up like lever actions do from rapid fire. Also the sighting system (aperture sight) is superior to most lever actions as they come from the factory.

And as for accuracy, the M1 Carbine, in good examples that have not been shot out, will shoot just as good, if not better, than lever actions do. JUST AS GOOD.

Deaf

 

[COSteve]

And as for accuracy, the M1 Carbine, in good examples that have not been shot out, will shoot just as good, if not better, than lever actions do. JUST AS GOOD.

My '43 NPM correct Marlin barrel's muzzle is a 1 and the chamber is a 1.5. The carbine is pristine as in almost new condition and yet it still shoots 4+" groups at 100yds with handloads. (That's no where near a 'shot out' carbine. In fact, those are new barrel specs.) My new commercial AO M1 Carbine shoots much better but still is a 2+" group shooter at 100yds. Both my Rossi 357mag leverguns shoot under 2" at 100yds with my handloads.

Those aren't arm waving platitudes as your statement appears but rather real, measured accuracy. I love my M1 Carbines and my Rossi and they both serve their designed purpose well.

The facts are that the 357mag cartridge, fired from a 20" barreled levergun provides superior performance in a larger bullet, be it a 110grn or the heavier 125grn, 140grn, or 158grn bullets than even the 110grn Sierra JSP bullets I load my 30 Carbine HD ammo with.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

What James K said. I have fired practice grenades from one, and was AMAZED at how far they flew.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Those aren't arm waving platitudes as your statement appears but rather real, measured accuracy.

So COSteve you picked one Carbine and judged them all not particularly accurate. And then you judged one leveraction and judged them all very accurate.

Now is that an accurate statement of what you posted?

Oh, and your leveraction grew to a 20 inch barrel but the Carbine stayed as an 18 inch barrel. Now was that lever action scoped to?

Deaf

 

[HiBC]

The only grenade launcher I remember for the M16 was the M203.

Actually the flash hider on the AR's and M-16's IS the grenade launcher.

I've fired a few inert rifle grenades at silhouette targets at 100 yds.
We also launched a few rifle grenade parachute flares.
I'm not sure the blank we used was an official grenade blank,but it was 5.56,star crimped,with white lacquer.

Other countries have developed rifle grenades that work with ball ammo,so no blank is necessary.
Of course,USA went with the 40mm launcher.

 

[44 AMP]

That is most lever actions will jam if fired from canted positions, or upside down for that matter. Carbine won't!!!

I've never noticed any of the lever actions I own to be particularly sensitive to canting, although I can see it being possible, lever guns were designed a bit earlier than the carbine, and not specifically for combat.

Never tried shooting a rile upside down. I think I'd have a really difficult time aiming...

 

[kraigwy]

I'm a huge Carbine Fan. I guess I got that from my father who love it. He fought in the SP in WWII, (Burma), said you could seldom see more then 25 yards it was so thick. Because of his experience on Burma it was his weapon of choice in Korea also.

He even had pictures of a water buffalo he killed with his Carbine. Ammo was light, the rifle was light, small and easy to get through the Jungle wait-a-minute vines. Same reason I fell in love with the M16A1 in Vietnam. After all, you do more humping then shooting as an infantryman. And not to be outdone, I killed a water buffalo with my 'A1.

And, if one learns to shoot it, its accurate. Mine is an Underwood I got through the CMP. I shoot it in their carbine matches. At the first part of this month I got the "old guys' award' shooting mine at the CMPs Oklahoma Games. They call it the High Grand Senior. But for an old man shooting an old rifle, I'm happy.

 

[COSteve]

So COSteve you picked one Carbine and judged them all not particularly accurate. And then you judged one leveraction and judged them all very accurate.

Hardly. You and I know that the spec for the M1 Carbine and almost every GI one made, is 4+" at 100yds. Don't play dumb. That's the spec on it. As to the Rossi, it's common for them to produce good groups with decent ammo.

Our shooting club includes some 1,100 members, we have CMP shoots every other Friday with many members attending. Our members have lots of M1 Carbines and lots of leverguns and the fact is that the M1 Carbines aren't that accurate.

They are not now, nor were they ever designed to be a long range weapon. They were intended to be a replacement for rear echelon troops who were issued pistols so that they would have a modicum more protection. Military pistol performance is measured in feet.

 

[kraigwy]

Deaf Smith:

If any of you here are in Alaska.... and have a Carbine.... does it freeze up in the winter (presuming you dry lube it)?

Oh, and does the bullets bounce off game when it's that cold?

Deaf

No, and no I don't dry lube my rifles, when I lived in Alaska nor now here in Wyoming, where often its just as cold. When hunting in Alaska, sub zero temps, I didn't lube them at all. If I was going to do a lot of shooting, after the rifle got warm, I'd add LAW (light weight oil).

The problem with rifles in sub-zero temps is mostly caused by the gun sweating. Keep in a warm tent, then when out site, the sweat and freeze. Leave the rifle outside and you dont have that problem.

I spent a lot of time on the Bering Sea, which is not only cold, but constant blowing snow. If there is any lube, or oil on the rifle, it attracts that snow and you get problems.

Keep it dry until it warms up, then you can add oil if you are going to shoot a lot, when you're done, clean off the oil.

As to "bullets bouncing off" game when its cold. The animals you hunt are warm blooded, if their alive, their body temp. is no different then in the summer. If they are frozen................well it means they are dead and there is no reason to shoot them.

 

[Deaf Smith]

4+" at 100yds. Don't play dumb. That's the spec on it.

Steve,

You saying the U.S. military specifications called for a 4 inch group at 100 yards from the Carbine? I thought it was 3 -5 MOA was the spec.

Deaf

 

[44 AMP]

I don't have the specs on the carbine, but the ammo spec for .30 Carbine M1 Ball is 1.5" mean radius max avg. at 100yds.

The spec for .30 Carbine tracer M27 is 3.5" @ 100yds.

 

[kraigwy]

Regardless, the limiting factor on the Carbine is not the rifle or the ammo, its the shooter.

A 3.5 MOA group is enough to clean the 100 yard targets used in the CMP Carbine matches, yet you see very few cleaned targets.

The best way to improve the Carbine's performance is rounds down range.

The Carbine is a short range rifle, 300 yards is about its max. At about 300 yards the standard government loading goes sub-sonic. The Army came up with the magic number "60 ft lbs" of energy is required to produce a disabling wound. At 300 yards the standard Carbine round develops about 285.

Even taking the extreme spread of 4 inches, that's 12 inches at 300 yards, not much larger then a human head.

So its my opinion that the Carbine, for what it was designed for, Plus being adapted for jungle warfare, is an effective weapon.

Not to mention pure fun and cheap to load for.