M1 Carbine

[James K]

Actually, there was no blank cartridge for the carbine; the grenade launcher blank (5-rd. box) was used when/if a noise maker blank was needed. The bolt had to be operated manually..

In fact, neither the carbine nor the SMG was ever used extensively with blanks in training or ceremonies as the M1 rifle was, and no blank adapter (AFAIK) was ever issued by the U.S. for either. (Some other nations made and issued blank adapters for the carbine; most of those seen here - they look like a tiny champagne bottle - are Danish.)

Jim

 

[Deaf Smith]

He talks about the French paratrooper's love of the M1 Carbine.

Well yea, compared to the French MAS service rifle in 7.5 French and I can see why they loved the Carbine.

Deaf

 

[James K]

They liked the carbine for the same reason Americans did. But, as my old platoon sergeant told me, "I threw away my M1 and got a little, light carbine (in Korea), then I had to shoot a "Chink" 15 times and he damned near got me, so the next day I threw away that %&^^&%^& carbine and got an M1."

The voice of experience.

Jim

P.S. As noted earlier, the term "M1" without qualification ALWAYS meant the M1 rifle. No one ever called it a "Garand" and no one ever called the carbine an "M1 carbine" except to distinguish it from an M2 carbine.

JK

 

[SHR970]

My Grandfather served in the Pacific Theater in WW2. He had ZERO complaints about the Carbine. It served him well enough to come home.

My Father served in the Army between Korea and Nam. Issued a carbine guarding "Sensitive Ordinance" amongst other duties. When the Rondney King Riots happened in our front yard I gave him my Carbine to hold him over.. he did not at all feel under armed.

The Carb ain't no full on battel rifle but it isn't to be scoffed at either. At 100 yards or less it beats the hell out of a 1911 or Beretta M92 any day. At over 100 yards it wins the arguement hands down. With modern ammo it will fulfill its job with a suitable efficacy for most any defender.

 

[Gunplummer]

44 AMP-The 203 was the was up the line. We still had "Bloop" guns the first time I was in. There was a multi- fingered round spring behind the flash suppressor to launch grenades. I never saw it used, but if was in the system, someone must have tried it.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Lt. Col. John George used the M-1 Cabine while serving in Merrill's Marauders. He liked it, but then again, he relied on head shots to put down the Japanese he was fighting. You can read about it in Shots Fired in Anger.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Not only Lt. Col John George, in his book, "Shots Fired in Anger" he wrote about being in several firefights, one even when trapped by a battalion of Japanese in Burma (he was in the 5307th.)

Before the war he was a competitor in rifle shooting in the Illinois State Guard , even shot at Camp Perry national matches in '38, and has a photo in the book with him, his rifle, and lots of trophies as well as at Camp Perry. He wrote that he felt the skills he learned at competition did most certainly reflect in combat shooting, in one case he would 'call the shot' in that he would put his sight on a Japanese and fire, then think 'head shot', next Japanese 'chest shot', and did this while retreating toward the front lines (they were cut off.) His rifle he used to get out of that? An M1 Carbine!

Well Lt. Col. George felt the M1 Carbine was an ace weapon. But remember, he was a very good shot and not a lot of GIs were. That may explain the difference.

And C. Shore, who wrote a book, "With British Snipers to the Reich ", also told about finding a Winchester made M1 Carbine in a ditch and he made it his personal rifle (he was a sniper.) He marveled at it's accuracy out to 200 yards. Even used the Carbine to take deer with FMJ. BUT again, he was a very good shot!

From Audie Murphy's book:

"Within a moment I am involved in a duel with a German who climbs upon a cannon to get the advantage of elevation. I see him as he lowers his rifle upon me and whip up my carbine. He fires. The bullet kicks dust in my face as my carbine goes off. Frantically I try to blink the dirt from my eyes, knowing the German will not miss again. It is only a few seconds, perhaps, but it seems much longer before I can see. The kraut is sprawled in front of the gun. Later I discover that my lucky shot got him in the heart." (Chapter 15)

"Grasping the carbine in my left hand and a grenade in my right, I step suddenly from behind the rock. The Germans spot me instantly. The gunner spins the tip of his weapon toward me. But the barrel catches in a limb, and the burst whizzes to my right. I lob the grenade and grab the carbine trigger with one movement. Before the grenade has time to burst, two krauts fall with carbine slugs in their bellies. I quickly lob two more grenades into the position; four of the eight Germans are killed; three are put out of action by wounds. The eighth, a squat, fat man, tries to escape.....I squeeze the trigger. The helmet jumps. The man falls as if struck in the head with a club." (Chapter 17)

"Before reporting to company headquarters, I carefully clean my carbine. ‘I want to go up and try to get that sniper,’ I say....There is a rustle. My eyes snap forward. The branches of a bush move. I drop to one knee. We see each other simultaneously. His face is a black as a rotting corpse; and his cold eyes are filled with evil. As he frantically reaches for the safety of his rifle, I fire twice. He crashes backwards....At headquarters I make my report. Then I go to the room that serves as a kitchen, take my carbine apart, and start cleaning it." (Chapter 17)

"Crack! It is like being struck with a ball bat. The ricocheting bullet digs a channel through my hip and knocks me flat....I raise my carbine and with my right hand fire pistol-fashion. The bullet spatters between the German’s eyes." (Chapter 18)

"'Wonder if I could get a carbine. I don’t like an M-1 for this woods fighting.'" (Chapter 19)

So there. Three top men who saw major combat and all of them extolled the Carbine.

That's good enough for me.

Deaf

 

[4V50 Gary]

DeafSmith - This year I finally read Audie Murphy's book, To Hell and Back. He brought a German sniper rifle home as a war trophy and there are pictures of him showing it to guests.

BTW, make sure your Carbine is USGI and not aftermarket. Approach aftermarkets with guarded caution. I worked on an IAI reproduction and here's some issues:

1) rear sight aperture fell off while being used. It wasn't found.
2) rear sight base found to be crooked. Apparently the monkey who assembled it bent the rear sight.
3) Gas piston housing not staked on properly. It got loose.
4) Front sight is crooked.

You pay more with USGI because you get more.

 

[44 AMP]

There's no question in my mind, the Carbine was a very good close range combat weapon. Light, low recoil, 15 shots, and about the power of a .357 magnum put the guys using them at an advantage over the enemy a lot of the time.

But not all the time. For all the stories about how good the carbine was, there are those that tell of it not being as good. Usually its a situational thing, and sometimes its more BS than truth.

One of the stories I heard as a youth came from a neighbor who had been a CB in the pacific. Some island which had been "cleared", his dozer crew was building an airstrip when they got pinned down by a sniper in the treetops. They had carbines, and couldn't get him, the sniper would shoot, then scoot around the backside of the tree, and the carbines just couldn't get through.

This went on for a while, and neither side actually hit anyone, but they knew it was a matter of time before the sniper (who was hitting pretty close) got lucky. At this point they are hunkered down behind the dozer, wondering what to do next and along comes a Marine, a "tall, lanky Texan with a wad of chew in his cheek" and a BAR. "Y'all got a problem, fellahs?"
P'ting goes a round off the dozer
Up comes the BAR, and the Marine "dumps about half a clip of AP" into the treetop.
Sniper rifle falls to the ground, sniper falls to the end of his rope. problem solved.

(or that's the way he told it, anyway )

Another story came from a friend of mine who had been a commo wireman in Korea. He hated the M1 Garand, and loved the carbine, and gladly admitted he had been fortunate enough to never have had to use either against anyone.

his "hatred & love" came from having to carry them. In the summer, (and per TO&E) he carried a carbine while stringing wire. But, when winter came, they "took away my carbine and made me pack that monster" M1 Garand. This was due to the widespread (and largely false) belief that the carbine wouldn't reliably penetrate the heavy quilted overcoat of the Chinese troops.

There's all kinds of stories out there, good and bad. A lot of them are the typical soldier's tale, if it worked, it was the greatest thing on earth, and if it didn't it was a POS, etc., and these things do grow in the telling...

Even still today, there is no one gun that is the best for every possible situation. The mix of pistol, SMG, carbine, rifle, and BAR (LMG) that the US used during the later half of WWII worked pretty well, usually, (backed up by heavier weapons on call) .

I've spoken to a couple of Germans, who faced that, and they were very impressed by the M1 Carbine (among other things). They said they "loved it" when they could capture one and enough ammo to be useful, because they were "very useful".

 

[ShootistPRS]

The 30 M1 Carbine is not at all like a 357 unless you compare the carbine to a pistol. Fire them both from an eighteen inch barrel and the 30 carbine gets just over 1900 fps while the 357 gets just over 2400 fps - both with a 110 grain bullet. From a six inch revolver the 357 will give almost 1800 fps with a 110 grain bullet.
A better comparison would be the 110 grain 38 special +P load.

 

[amd6547]

The only comparison of the 30 carbine to the 357mag I ever heard growing up concerned muzzle energy of a typical revolver compared to 30carbine energy at 100yds. Of course, 357mag carbines weren't real common.
I went through a trapper lever action phase, having owned a few, in different calibers.
Great guns, and a perfectly valid choice for many uses.
I've also owned various 9mm carbines, an ar, etc. The M1 carbine just has a perfect fit for me, and I prefer it and it's round over them all for home defense.

 

[Nibby]

Howdy All...
Nooby here.

I have an early Inland ETO bringback w/ the GL sight disc attached to the stock. The Vet was Not a front line Soldier.
It appeared to have never had a sight mounted to it.
I attached a sight and that is what marred the lower screw.
Sorry for the bad pic.

 

[COSteve]

1968 Planet of the Apes. The Apes used modified M1 Carbines.

Yep, here's one from the original movie.

And one from Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

 

[Ibmikey]

I gained a like for the Carbine in Korea and later received my first from DCM in 1963, that blossomed through the years to about fifty of them. Other firearm interests, gifts pd and collecting brought the number down through the years, however, I still have enough to shoot a different one each day for several weeks.
I have also inspected and fired Fulton Armory, Kahr, universal and other imitations of varied quality from good to utterly horrible..
Even with today's ultra high prices a good functioning original is the path to pursue to ownership. I was quite pleased with the later production Kahr, quality and functioning were just fine, others have had problems with them so i guess " ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances".
In any event the Carbine is the neatest personal sized rifle one can have for fun, home defense or bringing war time nostalgia into your life.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If any of you here are in Alaska.... and have a Carbine.... does it freeze up in the winter (presuming you dry lube it)?

Oh, and does the bullets bounce off game when it's that cold?

Deaf

 

[Chris_B]

Subject of "M1 carbine efficacy in Korea" was a dead horse the last time the dang horse's grandfather died.

Youtube groans under the videos. The internet gnashes its teeth, and those who where there saw what they saw or what they feel they saw.

Korea is not just a sub-arctic wasteland and nobody here will volunteer to put on a frozen kapok jacket and find out 'the truth'.

And if Mythbusters did it, let me stop you right there. I liked the show, Actual experts they were sometimes not. If you raise me Mythbusters, I will show you a leprechaun, a virgin, and a third mythical creature like a unicorn.

 

[44 AMP]

Fire them both from an eighteen inch barrel and the 30 carbine gets just over 1900 fps while the 357 gets just over 2400 fps - both with a 110 grain bullet.

2400fps with a 110gr .357 from an 18" barrel is faster than any data I've seen. 2300fps from a 20" yes, but never 2400 from an 18".

Of course, some guns are faster than others, so I'm not saying its impossible, I'd love to see the load producing 2400fps from an 18" fired in different guns, to see if it held that velocity.

My experience with different rounds that vary just a little in bullet weight & speed (10% or less) is that while there are differences we can measure, the effect on game an people seems to be about the same. I've found that a 10% or more (and sometimes less than 10%) difference in diameter seems to have more of a noticeable effect on game. (probably people too, but I don't have personal experience with that).

 

[COSteve]

2400fps with a 110gr .357 from an 18" barrel is faster than any data I've seen. 2300fps from a 20" yes, but never 2400 from an 18".

Technically, you are accurate, however, check out Hodgdon's Handloading site for the 357mag in a rifle. They state that using a Hornady 110grn XTP bullet with a full charge (23.0grns) of H110 and an OAL of 1.590", the combination will produce 2,398fps. That's close enough to 2,400fps. Oh, by the way, it's not from an 18" barrel, it's from an 18.5" barrel. So, 2fps and .5". I can live with that difference.

Further, they also state that using a Hornady 158grn XTP bullet with a full charge (16.7grns) of H110 and an OAL of 1.590", the combination will produce 1,757fps. My 20" Rossi carbine produces 1,789fps and my 24" Rossi rifle produces 1,822fps so those numbers look good. In addition, if one uses Elmer Kieth's original 357mag load levels, my carbine produces 1,944fps and my rifle produces 1,977fps.

 

[Reloadron]

The M8 grenade launcher and the M3 flash hider both shared the same method of attachment to the barrel. The clamp on wingnut affair. Both devices are pictured in Bruce N. Canfield's book the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine. I have one of the M1 Carbine flash hider knock offs made in Spain.

Ron

 

[Deaf Smith]

But tell me folks, does the .357 Magnum from a rifle barrel keep it's velocity well as the Carbine at ranges like 100 and 200 yards? Does it have a better trajectory? More energy?

Well here is some answers..

Carbine        110 gr. Remington Soft Point.
                      Vel(fps)         Energy(f/lb)     trajectory (100 yard zero) 
Muzzle.....           1990             882                      -1.5
100 yards.            1567             600                       0.0
200 yards.            1236             373                     -12.9

http://guide.sportsmansguide.com/ballistic-chart/remington_charts/30carbal.htm

.357 Magnum Hornady 140 grain FTX 18 inch barrel
                      Vel(fps)         Energy(f/lb)     trajectory (100 yard zero) 
Muzzle.....           1850             1064              -1.5
100 yards.            1458              660               0.0
200 yards.            1064              422             -15.6

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.357-magnum.html


So you see, if you use a semi-pointed .357 magnum round made for rifle barrels it gives you some more power but not a huge amount. Nor does it give you a flatter trajectory.

And the Carbine holds 15 to 30 rounds over a .357 Magnum leveraction's 9 or 10.

Deaf