M1 Carbine, Modified

Dave R

New member
Somewhere, sometime, I saw a cutom gun house (in Alaska, maybe?) selling modified M1 carbines, for even bigger rounds. I seem to remember something like a .50 Beowulf. They were selling the thing as a fast, light repeater that was bear-capable, for Alaska.

I googled it, but could not find it. Maybe it was a fantasy...
 

3StrikesNC

New member
Didn't "Coonan" make a semi-auto .357 Magnum pistol in the '70's?

I seem to remember being concussion blasted by a friend at a Range. as I recall, the frame was huge (for the time).

If so, could the magazine technology be used?

As a current Carbine and .357 fan, I'd like to see this.
 

publius

New member
.357 Sig. should be easy to do with it's shoulder. Not sure about the ballistics out of a rifle, probably not as hot as what you're looking for.
 

Bill DeShivs

New member
The US Carbine has been made in .25, .30, 9mm, and other calibers.
With expanding point ammunition, the carbine can hold it's own. Why would you need to change the caliber? None of the carbines in anything other than .30 was popular. It's been done-a long time ago.
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Bill, see my penultimate sentence in Post #1.

I like the platform. Fun toy. So, since .357 Carbine ammo could be made via 9mm Parabellum brass, but longer, the OAL would be the same. Either a heavier bullet at the same MV, or the same weight of bullet as the present ammo but a tad more velocity.

I already load softpoints in my own "bringback" Carbine.
 

lmccrock

New member
9mm Win Mag would be better than 38 super, since the factory loads are already a little faster. Well, not much factory 9mm Win Mag ammo out there, but there could be. :D

If you really want a rimmed cartridge, may as well go to 357 maximum.

Lee
 

TriumphGuy

New member
I would think that one could lop the neck off of a .223 case and trim it to .30 carbine length, seat a .30 cal bullet in what's left and up the pressure considerably. The case measurements are within .4mm or so of each other around the base and even closer at the rim. No need for rechambering, different mags and whatnot. This assumes that the action could handle it.

I think I read about someone doing something similar to make extra hot 9mm loads.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Jeff Cooper's "Super 9" was .223 brass, cut to .38 Super length, and used in a modified commander. The thicker rifle brass allowed higher pressures. As I recall, the extractor had to be modified to work, but I think he was using the standard .38 super extractor when he found it needed modification.

The Coonan .357 is a neat gun, and the mags do work. However, like the Desert Eagle mags, they have openings so, some kind of shrouded magwell would be needed to keep dirt out. And, they aren't exactly common.

Making a rimmed round work in a magazine is not as difficult as everyone seems to think it is, witness the millions of .22RF autopistols. The trouble with autopistols in .357 is the length of the round having to fit in the grip, and the average size of the human hand.

One could easily design and make a single stack rifle magazine to handle the .357 magnum, the main drawbacks are a) either fitting it to an existing rifle platform (M1 carbine/AR/Mini 14, etc), or b) making a new rifle just for it. It could be done, but it won't be done by any maker, unless they believe there is a market sufficient to justify the expense. And, frankly, there isn't.

People wanting a .357 carbine are generally happy enough with lever guns. Maybe some dedicated hobbyist with his own machine shop could build one, but in these times, I doubt he could sell enough to justify making it a business.

Wish I was wrong, though.:(
 

Sevens

New member
There was an outfit some years back that converted M1 carbines to .45 Win Mag. I heard some of their guns suffered split barrels, as at first they were just reboring the original barrel. When they stopped doing that, the guns stopped making news, so I'm thinking they must have been reasonably OK. Don't know if they are still in business.
I actually knew the guy that was doing this. He was the father of a kid on my smallbore junior rifle team. And I know it was him because Jeff Cooper gave him a "shout out" in the back page of G&A where he had his column at the time. And interestingly enough, I ran across that same issue just a few months back when I was reading through some of my back issues.

His name is Tim Legendre, and this would have been circa '88 or '89 or so, but I can't find nearly ANYTHING on the web of him or the project. If anyone else has some links, or some Google-fu better than mine, I would like to see anything they can find relating to the guy or his projects and where it went.

Indeed, it was .45 Win Mag in an M1 Carbine. Go big or don't go, I guess! ;)
 

Tacoma

New member
I agree, it would be very interesting to compare (old style hot) 38 super to .30 carbine.
I would also agree that the 30 carbine , when loaded with a soft point bullet, commands allot more respect.
 

Travlin

New member
I agree with 44 AMP. If you want a .357 there are fine lever rifles for that round. There just isn't enough advantage in going semi-auto to make a profitable market. Especially with the CMP selling GI M1 carbines for much less than Auto Ordinance can make modern copies.

I don't reload, but people who do have presented data showing that in standard power (not custom loads) a .357 mag round and a .30 carbine are roughly equal in an 18 inch barrel. The carbine is quite potent for its size. I don't see how your custom rifle presents any practical advantage.

The .30 carbine military round was 1,990 fps. Most commercial rounds today are 1,850 - 1950 on the chronograph. Many M1 carbine shooters have used lead bullets for years with no problem with the gas system, as long as the lead was fairly hard.

But its been a long winter and if it makes you happy to think about it, that's just fine. Having your own custom rifle is a worthy endeavor. I just don't see anyone making any money on this.
 
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gak

New member
44AMP and Tavlin make excellent points. I've never found my GI carbines to be underpowered for what I've wanted and expected them to do. It is interesting to note that the .30 carbine round is virtually identical in overall length to the .357 (and 44 Mag for that matter)...which causes one to wonder whether modestly modified stock magazines might result in nifty and stock-looking 12-24 (or so) rounders in the .357...if other mechanical issues with the action could be addressed which would make the gun itself operate. As Travelin suggests, fun stuff to ponder anyway.
 

BillCA

New member
Okay... I'm officially "impressed" with the .30 carbine round. Here's why.

My thinking was to find a substitute cartridge that could be utilized in the carbine to provide more "punch" but without sacrificing the basic size/lightweight rifle concept.

So the .30 Carbine shoots a 110gr bullet at ~1990 fps, yielding 967 fpe at the muzzle. Some quick comparisons show that the "big three" magnums - .357, .41 and .44 - will exceed that performance from a 16" barrel. The 10mm has been neutered from it's original form but can manage to just barely exceed the .30 Carbine's energy in one load.

All the semi-auto handgun rounds are below the bar set by the .30 Carbine -- the 9mm, 9mm+P, 9mm WinMag, even the smoking hot 7.62x25mm Tokarev doesn't compare.

One round that did surprise me, which might be workable since it's the same 1.290" length as the .30 Carbine, .357 & .41 Magnums (.44 is 1.285 case length) is the new .327 Federal Magnum. As a .32 caliber round, it should fit within the magazine and receiver well. A new barrel and modifications to the bolt for a rimmed case should be relatively easy, I would think.

Rounds like the 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .250 Savage and 6x47mm were looked at. These are true rifle rounds with much more power. But most are built on either the .473" .30-06 case head or the .223/.222 (.378") case head. All of which are larger diameters than the slender .360" of the carbine. Plus, all of them would require a longer action by at least 1/2".

So, sneer not at the "lowly" .30 Carbine round. It may be weak when compared to the .30-06/.308, the .270 or even the .222 Remington magnum, but those catridges are almost half again as long and thicker. There's a lot more power in that little round than meets the eye!
 

Peter M. Eick

New member
It is not that bad of an idea once you stop and consider it.

To me the 10mm would be the logical choice but I agree it probably does not have the powder capacity to run the action well. 357 maximum would work easily but then you have the rim to deal with.

How about a rimless 357 maximum sized round that could be fired in a max also with a moon clip?

I bet you could rebore the barrel, and then tune the load to run the action unmodified. You would have to open up the mag lips to feed the round but that could be done pretty easily.
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
9mm Para is .357, right? Why would it be difficult for a factory to fabricate that case to the same length as the Carbine?

Bolt face, barrel, R&D with gas port diameter and recoil spring and it's good to go, seems like.

Mostly I figure that a bit heavier bullet might get better penetration on such game as smaller hogs and deer, while not hurting any present effectiveness for plinking and defense.

Main thing is "light and handy" and some gunmaker could use existing tooling. Aren't the Israelis producing some? I forget...
 

bamaranger

New member
AK big bore

I've talked about wildcatting the x39 round and running a big bore AK. I was thinking a .40, but .35 would be OK.

That's sort of the same idea you've got w/ your M1 carbine project. There was a MAG-1 which big bored the carbine, but I don't have the details.
 
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