M1 Carbine, Modified

[Art Eatman]

Anybody here work for a gun manufacturer?

Browsing through these threads about home defense and multi-use rifles, I got to thinking. That's always dangerous.

So: How practical, and how costly would it be to re-create the old M-1 Carbine as, say, a .357 Maggie? Rimless, of course. The case lengths are the same.

0.050" more bore, same for cartridge case diameter. Doesn't seem like a big deal, there. Strength of the bolt lugs shouldn't be any problem. The recoil spring is controlled by the sizing of the gas port.

You can load 110-grain bullets in a .357 and get near-2,000 ft/sec from a six-inch revolver. The as-is Carbine gets around 2,000 ft/sec.

Looks to me like it would make the little critter a bit more useful for defense, and move it on up into the useful category for up-close deer hunting.

The primary advantage, overall, would be the "light and handy" aspect. Smaller, lesser-strength users, and lazy Olde Pharts like me.

 

[bigghoss]

if someone made a .357 mag semi-auto carbine I would be first in line. it sounds like you think it would be worth developing a ".357 automag" or something like that. you could go with a rebated rim the same diameter as the .30 carbine but I think it would be better off to just use regular .357 magnum and run single stack mags. or you could bump it up to 10mm.

 

[taylorce1]

Art,

I don't know about the M1 version of what you are looking for I've never seen one but with the right money I'm sure anything is possible. Sure would be neat to see one. How much does the .30 Carbine round out class the .357 anyway?

I have a friend that has the Ruger .44 Mag carbine. Pretty neat rifle just don't know where you would get any high capacity magazines for them. 5 rounders is all my buddy can find for his.

I wouldn't think one of the carbines offered by Baretta or Hi-point would be to far behind what you are thinking if you can get one in .40 S&W or find an old Marlin Camp Carbine in .45 ACP.

 

[DMK]

Why couldn't it be done with the regular rimmed .357? There are few rimmed cartridge semi-autos around. The Desert eagle handguns, the SVT-40 and PSL rifles just off the top of my head. Tricky maybe, but it's certainly possible.

I would think that being able to use existing .357 cartridges would be a huge benefit to having a carbine like this.

 

[deadcoyote]

It seems DE 357 9 round mags are fairly easy to come by and cost 20-30 bucks. Could give you something to work with.

 

[4V50 Gary]

I wonder if the Israelis, who produce a M-1 Carbine replica, could be convinced to do it? They have the engineers who can study critical things like pressure, timing, bolt life, receiver life and other things related to parts failure and reliability.

 

[44 AMP]

Been considered, but the problem is the market

Art, maybe the cartridge you would like is the 9mm Winchester Magnum?
I beleive if someone made a .30 M1Carbine class rifle for it, it would probably revive this nearly extinct round.

However, the devil is in the details, and its tough to sell guns when the ammo is rare. And its tough to have ammo commonly available when there hardly no guns for it.

The .357 revolver round would work fine, save for the magazine issue. I think if someone would build a rifle like the Marlin Camp carbine, using the Desert Eagle .357 magazine, you would have a dandy handly carbine. And, by making it as a carbine, without all the tacticool stuff, with a wooden stock, you will get past a lot of the anti black rifle BS.

I would, however hope it would be made better (and slightly different) than the Camp carbine, there were some problems with those.

There was an outfit some years back that converted M1 carbines to .45 Win Mag. I heard some of their guns suffered split barrels, as at first they were just reboring the original barrel. When they stopped doing that, the guns stopped making news, so I'm thinking they must have been reasonably OK. Don't know if they are still in business. Neat idea, for that Univeral carbine you've got just handing around.

As to a carbine in .357 AMP,......drool, drool, drool......
What a joy that would be, IF, again, you could get ammo.
And it could be done with an M1 carbine platform, as proven by those conversions to .45 Win mag. The only real drawbacks would be fact that most .357 bullets aren't made to go that fast, and building a gun with acceptable accuracy. If you could do that, I think it would be way better than the SKS for any sporting use.

One problem with using the .357 magnum revolver round in a semi auto is the gas operation. Recoil operated semi auto rifles aren't sold much these days, as the few remaining ones are genuinely scarce. So gas operation, what's the problem, right? The problem is lead bullets. Clogged gas systems, even when fairly easily cleaned, will give your gun a bad reputation.

Doesn't matter that its the nature of the beast. Doesn't matter if you mark the gun in letters three inches high, if you make a .357, some fools will put lead (unjacketed) ammo through it. And then think you were at fault for making a crappy gun! Such is life, oh well!
More than a couple Desert Eagles have been clogged so badly that barrel replacement was the only answer. Now that gas system is hard to clean!

Still, a .357 carbine is a neat idea. Odd someone hasn't already come up with an AR upper and magazine system, seems like that could be done.

 

[ThomasT]

Art I have thought along the same lines kind of. I wish that Ruger would modify the mini-14 to shoot the 30 carbine with the original mags. Those guns and cartridge are so popular I cannot understand why another rifle hasn't been designed to shoot that round. Even an H&R Handi in 30 carbine would be fun.

Also make a rimless 357 or better yet a rimless 357 maximum for the mini-14. The gun should handle the pressure with no problems. The load data is already worked out. There are a ton of bullets. I have a 357 lever action and it is my favorite firearm of all the ones I own. A semi auto would be too fun.

 

[birdshot]

that is a great idea. are there any parent cases we could use to form the 357 eatman rimless?

 

[Fat White Boy]

Modify an M1 Carbine? How about an M2?

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56030&d=1263779508

 

[birdshot]

m2 is expensive, unless uncle sam is buying your ammo.

 

[ThomasT]

Birdshot the regular 7.62x39 could be necked up to 35 caliber. That way the bolt face of the mini wouldn't need to be changed and the mags should also work. I just don't think there would be a market when the standard 7.62x39 is already so popular. Thats why I mentioned a mini chambered in 30 carbine. The bolt face would have to made slightly smaller and maybe a block in the magazine. I doubt we will ever see it.

With the crazy prices on brass and the difficulty of finding primers and sometimes powder, right now is just not a good time to introduce a new round. There are a couple of calibers I would like to get but right now I have enough guns to feed.

 

[Fat White Boy]

That was in 1973 in SE Asia. Ammo was free!

 

[TJH3781]

Many moons ago, Jeff Cooper built a Commander he termed the Super 9. I believe all he did was cut down 223 brass to 9MM length for greater case head strength. Maybe one could do the same, only to 30 Carbine length for the Carbine.

 

[Pranqstr]

35 Winchester Self Load

In 1905 Winchester made the 35 WSL. It pushed a 180gr bullet at about 1450fps, I'm sure it could have done better with jacketed rounds. This is very similiar to what the 357 mag could do - in a semi rimmed case. 35 WSL case length is 1.64 inches (the 30 carbine is 1.65 inches).

I've heard they made a 50ae m1 carbine...

 

[amd6547]

I am a big fan of the M1 carbine, and perfectly satisfied with both the weapon and the cartridge. I use my CMP Inland as my HD carbine.
My dream carbine would be an M1 chambered in 10mm, but then it would be harder to find ammo then the 30 carbine already is.

 

[BillCA]

My dream carbine would be an M1 chambered in 10mm, but then it would be harder to find ammo then the 30 carbine already is.

So: How practical, and how costly would it be to re-create the old M-1 Carbine as, say, a .357 Maggie? Rimless, of course. The case lengths are the same.

It must be something in the water... I've been thinking about this since just after Christmas in a casual sort of way. I love the M1 Carbine for it's lightness and easy handling characteristics. For the record, I think it's nearly the perfect home defense rifle.

The M1 Carbine round throws a 110gr projectile downrage between 1600-1800 fps for between 650-790 fpe. Most of the handgun cartridges can do just as well if not better.

A .357 Magnum chambered carbine requires attention to the rimmed case and the use of lead ammo. It would be much better to use a rimless case.

.357 Sig? As a base cartridge, it's short, but a little study reveals that it doesn't produce the muzzle energy of it's larger cousin.

10mm Auto? This was were I was originally heading too. Like AMD, I thought it'd make a dandy carbine. Until I checked the Ballistics By The Inch results. With the .357 Magnum you can get up to ~1250 ft-lbs (~1170 avg). But with both the .357 Sig and 10mm your ballistics drop into the 800 fpe range.

Just for grins, I checked the new .327 Federal Magnum out too. Their 100gr load clocks 2141 out of an 16" and 2186 from 18". That's 1020 to 1060 ft-lbs from a .32 caliber round. Recoil should be pleasing too.

If it were my choice, I'd opt for the 10mm and design the gun to stand up to the original Normal loads. Those loads reach into .41 Mag territory. From a 4.6" barrel:
150gr @ 1475 fps - 725 fpe
165gr @ 1725 fps - 744 fpe
180gr @ 1350 fps - 728 fpe
200gr @ 1300 fps - 750 fpe
230gr @ 1120 fps - 641 fpe

A 200gr JHP at 1300 fps in a nominally 4-5 inch barrel should garner us around 1350-1400 ft-lbs for butt kickin' out of a carbine (16-18" barrel). But no one really makes this kind of 10mm load anymore. The round has been gelded.

So special order some made up and labeled as 10mm Norma Load and sell them with the gun. Big hole, lots of gee-whiz at the muzzle and sufficient energy. And you don't have to deal with the rimmed ammo or lead ammo issues either.

Magazines - instead of designing a magazine, use an existing handgun magazine. Perhaps Glock mags - at least there are extended capacity ones available. To maintin the look of the carbine, a magazine "shroud" could be fitted that looks like a straight 30-rounder, but allows easy mag swaps. A shroud would also protect the witness holes from picking up dirt and debris.

Why not start with a Ruger Mini series? Weight. There's no way the Ruger could be pared down to the Carbine's weight.

The .357 Mag would be a big improvement over the .30 Carbine, but I think the 10mm version would be easier to produce, sufficiently more effective with heavier 135 to 150gr slugs and still be light enough to work well. For a home defense rifle, it'd be the bee's knees!

Note: If you wanted a really potent "carbine", design it around the 1.1912" long .250 Savage round. A 100gr spitzer pushed out at ~2890 fps gives us 1855 fpe.

 

[BlueTrain]

I think it is a good idea, partly because I rather like the M1 carbine (my father didn't, however). I suspect that more than anything else, it has simply gone out of fashion, being replaced by all the AK and AR15 sorts of rifles. That and the fact that so many writers said things that weren't nice about the cartridge. Not the carbine itself but the cartridge.

I think that the better starting point would be the original intermediate cartridges that Winchester introduced about a hundred years ago rather than pistol or revolver cartridges. At least it would be better if you didn't have to use a brand new cartridge. As with everything, a sticking point would be the magazines. More than one or two new designs have fallen apart over the scarcity of proper magazines, not to mention a lot of old automatics that you can't find a decent new magazine for.

I say intermediate cartridge but I don't use that in any limited or technical sense. The size and performance of cartridges have always had a continuous spread and never had neat divisions, other than handgun and long gun, and even then, there was some overlap. The original .351 Winchester was just so so compared to a lot of cartridges but compared very favorably with the .38-40 and .44-40 that were still being manufactured in new rifles at the time. Oddly enough, the carbine was manufactured in a necked down cartridge, the name of which I don't recall at the moment, but that was the fad 40 to 50 years ago.

 

[bufordtjustice]

In regards to modifying the M1 carbine, the main complaint I have is the safety design. I also think they are a great little utility carbine and would be interested in seeing them "reinvented" for the modern market.

My question is this: Can the .30 carbine round itself be reworked with a better bullet and powder to increase its capabilities as opposed to redesigning mags, etc. Would it be as simple as putting in stiffer recoil springs and hotter (but still safe) powder or would that just be a potential recipe for a KB?

I know just enough about reloading to be dangerous so someone fill me in.

Also, several members of my family have M1 carbines and they are very entertaining to shoot. I do remember however, my dad had a Universal that continued to be problematic. The last time we tried to shoot it, it kept jamming, failing to lock into battery, etc. I took it apart for my Dad and realized that the Bolt had cracked all the way through and all the way around up around the locking lugs.

After doing some research, it seems that happened on occasion. Would there have to be a bolt redesign or just made out of stronger materials? And yes, I made him get rid of the junker and buy a GI from CMP.

 

[Goldy]

Having come into a couple dozen gallon jugs , I did some water jug shooting with various calibers. One of these was my carbine. FMJ rounds were not anything special but my handloads with soft points were amazing. They shredded the jugs and I got splashed from 25 yards.

I have a newfound respect for the little carbine now.
With a good bullet the .30 carbine round is nothing to sneeze at.