Loaded rifle rounds for the first time (223 Rem)

[KEYBEAR]

I have used a ton of AA 2230 great stuff in the 223 and 55gr flat base bullets .
I shot a bolt gun setup for Bench Rest with the same twist your using .
I was told to slow them down to around 2600 fps a long time ago and it was the thing to do . I still love to shoot the 223 but age and health has made it hard .

 

[Unclenick]

Nick,

I don't happen to have one of the RCBS dies, but I believe they work with these plugs, in which no formed step is apparent of the sort the Lyman die makes. What the Lyman die does that is so helpful to keeping bullets straight is this:

That image is for a Lyman M pistol die with cast bullet. You can adjust the die so if forms only the step for jacketed rifle bullets and puts no flare above it.

 

[Metal god]

How do you get the "M" bulge out of the case after seating . I have to assume when the bullet is seated below that step the case stretches outward to allow for the bullet leaving that step as a free floating no bullet hold area of the neck . What do you do about that if you don't crimp ?

 

[Unclenick]

The fit to the bullet diameter of the step portion is surprisingly close, so in many instances you can simply ignore it. It then becomes a short length over which there just isn't neck grip on the bullet. But you only need it deep enough to set the bullet on, which needn't be much. If you have a very tight chamber neck and can't do that, letting a seating die crimp shoulder touch it will work. If you use a seating die that doesn't have that, you can use the body of one that does as a separate operation. A taper crimp will also flatten it nicely, and Redding is making rifle taper crimp dies for 223 Rem, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 Rem SPC, 7.62MM x 39, 30-30, 308 Win, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, and 300 Remington Ultra Mag.

 

[Road_Clam]

Try annealing the necks to allow easier expansion to accept the FB bullets ? The only other thing I can think of is to take a tapered punch and manually add a very slight bell, but then you need to make sure your seat die is capable of removing the bell after seating. Not sure if traditional .223 dies can accomplish this task.

 

[Metal god]

Thanks UN , I was thinking pretty much the same thing in that it likely will not effect the bullet hold unless you have the bullet seated very long with minimal amounts in the neck . I had not considered the tight chamber aspect , good to know .

 

[sirgilligan]

Too me it sounds that the step created by the M die can easily be taken care of with a Factory Crimp Die. I found the FCD was the easiest for me to get a decent crimp with, I have a roll crimp and a taper crimp die set for .223 but found the FCD to be the easiest.

 

[Metal god]

I agree , crimping would likely take care of the issue . I how ever don't crimp any 223 rounds and is why I asked in the first place . I also almost exclusively use BT bullets so seating has never been an issue . all my seating dies if raised very slow will straighten the bullet out better then I could do my self ( that is 223 , 308 & 270 ) . Hand gun bullets like 9mm and 45 are a whole other thing . If I don't have a proper flare they tend to wobble around like a bobble head doll . I could easily see a 9mm or 45acp FCD ironing out the M die bulge with just the carbide ring at the base with out even needing to crimp .

 

[Don Fischer]

I loaded for 222 and 223 years ago and never experienced the problem your talking about. Word of caution on champhering, you can over do it! Do to much and your necks will start splitting. You should be able to hold the bullet on top of the case with your finger about half way down the neck and make it work fine. But if you use boat tails, the problem simply goes away!

 

[Nick_C_S]

Lyman M Expander Die

I got on Midway and sprang for the Lyman M expander die (among a few other odds-n-ends).

Yesterday, I also loaded my remaining 50 bullets of the 55gn Spitzers, #1345. The same 24.0 grains of AA2230; CCI 400; 1.250 OAL as the previous 42 rounds. These are light construction, medium velocity, varmint bullets, and my barrels are 1:7 twist. Not the bullet for my purpose; so I'm moving them out of my inventory. They did serve their purpose of getting me some invaluable experience - so there's that.

I also loaded 8 of the Sierra 65gn SBT's, #1395. These are a boat tails; so no flairing is required. 23.5 grains of AA2230; CCI 400; 1.260 OAL. I like these bullets; and if they perform well, they'll become my mainstay bullet choice. I bought 300 of them.

And I loaded 7 of the Winchester 64gn PP's (whatever that stands for), with the same 23.5 grains of AA2230; CCI 400; 1.260 OAL. These are a flat base and so I gave the case mouths a little flair, and a mild taper crimp on the seat. I also bought 300 of these.

Hopefully, I can get out Thursday and shoot these off.

So far, so good. All-n-all, this loading for 223 Rem thing is going well. I sure am glad I have three decades of pistol loading experience from which to draw. A fair amount carries over; especially with confidence in general. Less second-guessing.

 

[Nick_C_S]

First Glitch

Took the AR out for a shoot this morning.

My 50 rounds of the 55gn Sierra Sptizers went off without a hitch. Of interesting note, I shot three or four mags (10 round) where I loaded them alternately with Federal Eagle 55gn factory ammo. The factory loads were noticeably stronger.

The Sierra 65gn SBT's went off without a hitch. Which was the first eight rounds of these. Shot nice. Accurate. Hurt the bullseye with a tight pattern at 50 yards. (Using a reflex dot sight, so I wasn't conducting an accuracy test). I found it interesting that the 65 grain bullets hit the same point as the 55's.

I had a problem with the seven Winchester 64 grain PP bullets. On round 6, it failed to feed. I dropped the mag, racked it, and out fell the case - with the bullet pushed inside it and lots of powder falling about. Not enough neck tension, I suppose. The case was flaired to seat these. To compensate, I gave them a very light crimp. Too light, evidently. Anyway, I loaded the one remaining round in the middle of a mag of factory ammo - it fed, fired, and cycled fine. Accuracy seemed excellent with these - rivaling the Sierra 65's.

So that was that. Had my first failure. I'll load a few more of these Winchester 64 grainers and give 'em a little more crimp. Also, since I have the Lyman M expander die coming, I'll wait 'till I get that to do the flair (or "expand," since it doesn't "flair" in the conventional sense).

I checked my primers and all looks well. No signs of pressure. I have a couple hundred 55 gr bullets remaining and I'll continue to load them at 24.0 grains of AA2230. I have 300 each (minus the ones fired, per above) of the Sierra 65's and the Winchester 64's. I loaded them both at 23.5 grains, and they seemed to do just fine, so I see no reason to change.

It might be time to buy a large quantity of AA2230 - it does what I need it to do.

I'm liking this. It's fun to load for AR's. And . . . they're rather fun to shoot too.

 

[sirgilligan]

Thanks for the continued updates. I read them very carefully.

 

[Nick_C_S]

Thanks for the continued updates.

You're welcome. There will be more posts.

The next step is to figure out my crimp for flat based bullets. I have about 90 of the Sierra 55gn HP's #1390 (the bullet I originally attempted to load back on post #1) that are flat based. Ultimately, I'm going to be using bullets in the 65 grain neighborhood, so these 55's will be good for working on the crimp - saving my 65's for more advanced testing.

Speaking of which, the 65 grain Sierra SBT's #1395 went well (they're boat tails and require no flair/crimp). I'm not sure when, but maybe after the next batch (I've only loaded/shot eight so far), I should pass them over a chronograph. Velocities aren't really a major concern of mine, but it's always good to know how fast they're going.

 

[Metal god]

I dropped the mag, racked it, and out fell the case - with the bullet pushed inside it and lots of powder falling about. Not enough neck tension, I suppose.

Scary thought right there . I've not been so unlucky to date . What press are you using , Single or progressive ? I use a single stage and can feel when I have/get a soft seat . I pull those and either Neck size again or trash the case .

Did you use the M die for flaring ? I'm concerned about this issue and dies that flare rifle rounds because I don't crimp any rifle rounds including 223/5.56 and was concerned that flare if done to much would reduce bullet hold .

Do you know why it did not chamber ?? I'm assuming powder jumped out of the case and lodged in between the case and chamber wall not allowing the case to fully chamber . Good for you man , who knows what would have happened if that cartridge chambered with that bullet pushed into the case . You would have had no idea there was a problem and likely just pulled the trigger . Definitely need to figure that issue out before shooting anything else . If it happened with that bullet it can happen with others . If those are the only rounds you used that flare die then you are likely on the right track as to what likely was the reason for that .

Also don't forget to inspect the chamber and barrel extension for powder left behind . I've seen powder stick inside the barrel extension do to the transfer of lube from the bolt left behind . Get in there and look close . Maybe swirl around a Q-tip in there to be sure it's cleaned out .

PM sent about those 64gr power point bullets . They look pretty good . If still on sale next week I think I'll pick up 2k of them .

 

[Nick_C_S]

What press are you using , Single or progressive?

I'm using my 1984 RCBS RS2 single stage. I have a Dillon 550 progressive; but at this time, I rather doubt I'll go progressive with 223 Rem.

I use a single stage and can feel when I have/get a soft seat.

I have noticed some effort variance when seating. I'll be more atuned to it, moving forward. Thanks.

Did you use the M die for flaring?

Haven't received it yet. In transit from Midway. Should be here Monday. I won't flair any cases until I get this die to try.

Do you know why it did not chamber??

I assume it's because the bullet tip "grabbed" something - which pushed it down into the case - at which point, it lodged cockeyed in the chamber - leaving the bolt half open. I could see the brass from the outside and that there was obviously a problem.

I'm assuming powder jumped out of the case

There was powder in and about the chamber.

and lodged in between the case and chamber wall not allowing the case to fully chamber.

No. That didn't happen. The case was lodged cockeyed; and that's why the bolt wouldn't close.

who knows what would have happened if that cartridge chambered with that bullet pushed into the case.

I know. Right.

Definitely need to figure that issue out before shooting anything else. If those are the only rounds you used that flare die then you are likely on the right track as to what likely was the reason for that.

They were. And yes; the evidence points to not enough crimp. I crimped very lightly. I'll work on this.

Also don't forget to inspect the chamber and barrel extension for powder left behind. I've seen powder stick inside the barrel extension do to the transfer of lube from the bolt left behind . Get in there and look close . Maybe swirl around a Q-tip in there to be sure it's cleaned out.

Well I fired some 40 rounds after the incident. I'll clean the gun today, most likely.

PM sent about those 64gr power point bullets . They look pretty good . If still on sale next week I think I'll pick up 2k of them .

Got it. Replied. Thank you.

 

[Nick_C_S]

Lyman M Expander Die

I received the Lyman M expander die yesterday.

I read the set up instructions with no surprises - sets up and adjusts just like any other expander die.

Once it was adjusted, it was obvious that this was exactly the tool I needed. The way the bullet sits atop the case mouth is NICE. Truly impressive. My universal expander opens up the case mouth and allows the bullet to seat - I mean, it'll work. But this Lyman M is amazing with what it does - the bullet sits so nice and square atop the case. The bullet points straight up-n-down, with no side wiggle.

Using the Winchester 64gn PP's, I loaded 20 with the universal expander; and 20 with the Lyman M. Both were crimped with my Lee FCD - applying more crimp than last batch. Last time, I only put a light crimp on them with the RCBS seater.

I also loaded 20 of the Sierra 65gn SBT's; but they're boat tails, so they got no flair or crimp.

So I have 60 rounds of ammo to test. Old Man Winter is back with yet even more rain (wettest winter here in at least 20 years). Thursday looks good. I'll do all I can to get out Thursday.

On a side note, I have two 223 seat dies. One of them, I've already "locked" down from the last batch of Win 64's. I used the same setting to seat the 40 I loaded yesterday. I measured and recorded the OAL's on all of them. First thing I noticed is there there's quite a bit of variance. I believe this is due to two factors: First, the tips are really pointy (compared to pistol) and made of soft lead - so there's going to be a lot of variance there. Keep in mind that the seater plug presses around the sides of the bullet, below the tip. Second, I believe that the ogives of the bullets seem to vary a little, so the plug's contact point on the bullet varies a little (some speculation there).

Longest OAL: 2.257" (two of them)
Shortest OAL: 2.240" (two of them)
So that's an Extreme Spread of 0.017"
Average OAL: 2.2510" (I was aiming for 2.250")
Standard Deviation: 0.00398072" (call it 4 thousandths).

Since the whole rifle ammo loading thing is new to me, I'm doing a lot of checking, rechecking, and measuring. I just found the above phenomenon to be interesting. Most old timer rifle loaders are reading this and going "pfft-duh," and laughing, I'm sure.

 

[Metal god]

Most old timer rifle loaders are reading this and going "pfft-duh," and laughing, I'm sure.

I would never but yeah it's pretty normal to have a good size variance but not .017 , That's a lot . I get as much as .011 when loading 77gr SMK from head to tip but when measuring those same cartridges using my comparator it's only .002 . I suspect your issue is more to do with the lead tips then your seating stem although it will cause some issues . I don't load a lot of lead tipped bullets but do remember a larger ES with lead tipped then FMJ or HP .

Just thinking about how much banging around any bullet does before they get to your bench has got to be huge . Put a soft lead tip on it and it's bound to deform some of them if not many . I've had projectiles delivered with the box crushed as if it were dropped . That can't be good for consistency

 

[Nick_C_S]

Just thinking about how much banging around any bullet does before they get to your bench has got to be huge . Put a soft lead tip on it and it's bound to deform some of them if not many.

. . . ^^ Yeah. That. Exactly.

Which is why I'm not worried about it. It's a non-issue for me. Was just an interesting observation. Besides, the factory ammo I bought (Federal Eagle 55gn fmj w/cannelure) and their OAL's are all over the place. They're so far off, I don't need calipers to see it. Some aren't even seated in the cannelure - missing it on either side.

 

[DMY]

Follow up question regarding expander

I'm interested whether annealing the necks would make a significant dirrerence in the life of the cases since you are now expanding then crimping? I have never annealed cases, but I too am new to loading .223s. Not sure it is worth the trouble if it only extends the life of the case by one or two reloadings.

 

[Metal god]

Unclenick may know best about that because he uses the "M" die as well as anneals but it seems reasonable to expect your case necks to split a tad sooner if you are using a standard FL die , then expanding followed by crimping . How many fewer firings I would have no idea but would assume it would be at least one . Now if you get 6 and now only 5 firings . Not sure that's even worth worrying about .

I do anneal and have to date never had a split neck . Not because my annealing allows me to get 50+ reloads per cases . It really has to do with the rather LARGE volume of cases I have and work my brass minimally . I separate by head stamp almost all my brass . Although I have , I generally don't load a specific lot of brass unless I have a minimum of 200 of the same head stamp and I have several lots of 250ct , a few of 500+ct and one LC-14 1k+ct .

So keeping those numbers in mind and the fact I only anneal after the 4th or 5th firing . My smallest lots I would need to go through 1k rounds before annealing , which I have . How ever I often just start loading from a different lot Rather then anneal and start again . I just recently did that very thing when I started loading from a 800ct lot of LC-16 cases . That lot of brass is going to last 3200rds minimum before I need to anneal and again I'll likely just start using another large lot when that time comes . That's going to take a couple years to load and shoot and in that time I'll likely anneal and prep those cases that have 4 or 5 loads on them and those will likely do another 4 or 5 loading so in just those two lots mentioned above I likely have 4+ years of loading to do and I still have 2k+ other cases to load from once fired .

My issue if you even want to call it that is my local club has literally tunes of 5.56 and 308 brass for sale cheap and even though I don't really need it I keep buying it . So it may take as many as 10 more years before all my cases have 10 loads on them and of course that does not take into account all the brass I'll buy during that 10 year span .

hmm , well that got long winded so yes you "may" need to anneal one or two firings earlier then normal when using an expander die along with a crimp .