Loaded rifle rounds for the first time (223 Rem)

[Nick_C_S]

Yep, I finally pushed aside the procrastination and loaded up some 223.

I had brass that had been corn cob tumbled, but that's as far as I had gone with them.

I used Hornaday's One Shot spray lube. I've heard that it can be problematic with rifle cases (works great with pistol). So I sprayed some on a paper towel and hand-applied it to the case. I had a case lube pad; but seemed to have misplaced it (found the lube for it, but no pad). I plan on getting another one, unless somebody has a better idea on how to lube 223 cases for FL sizing. I started with nine cases (I just grabbed a hand full and proceeded - that's the only reason why I chose nine).

My dies (RCBS Small Base) are brand new and uncleaned. So I had to clean them. I re-read my Speer manual on rifle loading. Set my size die and proceeded with caution. I guess stuck cases is a thing with rifle, so I moved slow. The first couple cases, I pulled them out prior to completing the press stroke and re-lubed (very lightly). They went fine. The remaining seven went faster. All went well.

I cleaned the primer pockets and then trimmed. I have one of those trimmers that fit on the end of a drill - nifty item. I was shooting for 1.750" on the trim. The closest case I had to that was 1.747 - close enough. I used it to set my trimmer. Worked great - they all trimmed to 1.747 (except for a couple that were already a little short). Chamfered and deburred. After trimming, I put them in one of those case test gauge block thingies - pass.

Ran into a problem:

I couldn't seat the bullet (dummy rounds) because the neck had no flair at all and the bullets (Sierra 55gn Blitz #1345) were square based (not boat tail). I tried a couple and managed to wreck a piece of brass - just won't seat. I have three bullet types, fortunately (also Sierra 55gn HPBT #1390; and Hornaday 55gn V-max) one of the three (Sierra 1390) was a boat tail - thankfully - so I managed to mock up a couple dummies and get my seater die set to an OAL of 2.241" (was shooting for 2.240" per Sierra - close enough). Set for a very mild crimp.

Question: I still need to know how to get the other two bullet types seated. Is there a die available that expands the case mouth? I don't want to be restricted to only boat tail bullet profiles, because I can't get the square based ones started. I feel like I'm missing something because I've been lurking for a long time and never heard of this problem. Any insight here would be a big help.

Time to prime. I primed the remaining six pieces of brass with my Lee Auto Prime and my CCI 400 primers. That went smooth - no different than the pistol brass I've been loading with a Lee Auto Prime for the last 32+ years.

Time to charge. Used AA-2230 and the starting load of 23.3 grains - per Sierra's load manual. The only hiccup here was that my large nozzle thingy on my RCBS Uniflow power hopper was too big and spilled power about. I dug out the box (32 yeas old and covered in dust) and in it was the small nozzle. Problem solved. The next six drops went perfect. Observed the powder level - check!

With the seat die already set, their trip through the press (using my 32 year old RCBS "RS-2" single stage, by the way - no Dillon progressive here) went quick and smooth. OAL = 2.241" Book spec = 2.240" - close enough. Re-tested them in the gauge block - pass.

So I have six rounds I'm going to have to test some day soon - if it ever quits raining here in northern California. Not that I'm complaining - we need the water; after five years of drought. I have two AR-15's that I built out really nice with the help of a knowledgeable friend. One, I took to the range once about a month ago - shot 57 rounds. The other is unfired. Otherwise, I have fired no other AR's. I'm not a rifle guy. This is all new to me.

I didn't write this just to ramble on (okay, maybe a little ). I'm actually looking for any insight that others might have regarding how I did. And more importantly, how I can do better. Or if you think I may have missed something, etc. Process improvements, you know. I'm normally among the journeyman here on TFL when it comes to pistol. This is something of a role-reversal. It's all good.

Thanks for listening.

 

[reddog81]

I recently started loading .30-06 after loading thousands upon thousands of pistol rounds. I stuck to the slow and steady method like you and used my rockchucker instead of the Lock N Load.

I purchased a Lee universal expanding die to slighltly bell the case mouth to help with accepting the bullet. I am using plain based lead bullets so scraping or otherwise deforming the base is pretty easy if the bullet is shoved into the brass. I tried both the hornady spray along with the RCBS lube and there was a night and day difference. Maybe I didn't spray the cases enough or something but the actual lube was much much smoother.

I haven't trimmed the cases yet. The cases were purchased once fired and I figured I shoot them once in my gun before worrying about trimming them.

Hopefully the weather will get above freezing sometime in the near future when I can make it to the range.

 

[firewrench044]

bottle neck rifle cases do not get expanded

The case mouth needs to be chamfered after trimming
allowing bullet to go into case and be seated
( hand tool )( not expensive )

 

[Sevens]

We are so much alike, I am just not a rifle guy either. I dabble in them.

Anyway, to the point-- after you trim, you typically inside and outside chamfer, and when you chamfer the inside of the case mouth you should see how it helps you to start a solid base bullet.

As for crimp... most don't. I don't.

I make .223 for one annual prairie dog trip, they go through my Howa bolt gun. I also shoot occasionally with a T/C Contender. I have run a box or two through my AR just to see if they work (they do!) but I haven't gone in to production for an "ammo eater" yet.

 

[Nick_C_S]

The case mouth needs to be chamfered after trimming

I did.

One of the dummy rounds, I chamfered the holy heck out of it - and still, no go. That's the piece of brass I ruined.

So no. It needs a lot more than even a ridiculous amount of chamfer to get the bullet started.

 

[Nosler guy]

I think everyone has had this problem, unless you have tiny hands, but after a while your bag of tricks gets a bit more full. You can try chamfering the inside more, you can use tweezers to hold the bullets upright in the case mouth or you can work on your dexterity and figure out how to hold the bullet just right to clear the gap between the last inch before the case mouth enters the die. Also you should really never trust once fired brass to be the correct length, that's a pretty good way to damage your rifle, especially your bolt, OR WORSE. I've had once fired brass measure .015 over saami max. If that case ends up in the leade/throat you'll basically end up with a super crimp pinching the bullet in the case and causing seriously high pressures. ALWAYS CHECK THINGS THAT CAN BE A SAFETY HAZARD AND CAN POTENTIALLY BLOW YOUR FACE OFF.

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[jmorris]

bottle neck rifle cases do not get expanded

Sure they do, the expander is generally built into the decapping pin unlike the powder drop die on pistol rounds. They do not get flared or belled though.

Nick, what does the OD of a loaded round measure vs one of your sized cases?

 

[JeepHammer]

Spray lube tip,
Put your cases in a flat bottom cardboard box,
Spray cases, leave space for cases to roll around, and roll them around on each other.
Lube wipes from one case to the others, giving an even coat.
Keep your box, once the bottom gets lube soaked into it, you need less lube.

Die tip,
When you clean up dies after loading, make sure the vent hole is clear!
Lube hardens in the hole, this vent is to allow excess lube from denying case shoulders by moving lube out of that area of the die.

Excessive lube or heavy lube on case will scrape off the neck, collect on the shoulder where it can't escape quickly enough and will dent the shoulder.
Hardened lube in the vent hole will dent cases with the correct amount of lube.

Trimming tip,
Most Trim to length cutters are flat faced.
Brass flattens out unless you have a VERY sharp trimmer,
And it won't stay sharp very long trimming brass, brass dulls cutter edges quickly.

To get a flat bottom bullet into the case, you need to angle cut the inside of the case.
This can be done with a champfering/deburring tool,
Or you can buy a trimmer that cuts to length, deburrs & champfer a at the same time (one process instead of three).

Once the inside of the case is tapered, the bullet will slide into the case.

Die lube tip,
Keep the dented/cracked cases, use them with 'Extra' lube, run a few more 'Scrub' cases to clean out excess lube.

Final check tip,
Use something like a LE Wilson case gauge as a 'Last Word' check,
Drop loaded rounds into the gauge and let the gauge tell you the shoulder didn't flair during bullet seating or crimping process.
When your full length resized rounds fit in the gauge, they will usually fit into the chamber with no issues.

Using the case gauge when resizing is a quick way to tell when you have the die set up correctly.
Case gauges make the entire process much faster and provides quality controll checks along the way, from first inspection (not sized) all the way through to finished product.

 

[hoffbill]

Regarding the issue of flat base bullets, I use Lee resizing dies with decapping pin. The pin has a "bell" on it which opens the case mouth to the proper dimension when it comes out. I have never experienced any seating problem with any caliber using Lee dies. So based on my experience I would say your issue with flat based bullets has to do with the resizing of the case neck, specifically it is too small. If your resizing die has a decapping pin with the neck sizing bell, remove the pin from the die and measure it to make sure it is the correct size. Assuming the sizing equipment is all correct, try some different brass. If that solves the problem, it would probably mean the brass you are using is springing back after the resizing ball comes out.

I have loaded a ton of .223 as well as many other calibers. Generally I find .223 to be a very easy forgiving round to load. It seems to be inherently accurate with almost any appropriate powder and bullet load as long as it is fired in a barrel with the appropriate twist rate for the size bullet being used.

 

[hoffbill]

One other tip: I resize and trim, then tumble my brass. This removes the lube which can become gummy over time and cause a dirty chamber and result in misfeed issues. The only exception on this is if the brass is dirty in which case it gets tumbled twice.

 

[nhyrum]

Case lube tip? Make your own. Pure liquid lanolin and either 99 percent isopropyl alcohol or red ISO heet(1 oz pure liquid lanolin per bottle ISO Heet) put in a spray bottle with a few bullets(i have two, 300 grain 45 caliber xtp Mag's in an ace industrial chemical resistant spray bottle) shake it good, the bullets help agitate, give a few sprays to the brass in a large Tupperware container, shake em up, maybe another spritz or two, and give em a few minutes to dry. Lubed thousands of cases like this and the only stuck case was my fault. I had just cleaned my die like I do after every few hundred, and I didn't let the solvent dry. Soaked the die gave it a light tap and shoved another case in it. That didn't work...

I also load my 223 with flat base bullets, and use the rcbs small base dies and have no problems with seating. And those are the first flat base bullets I've ever run in my entire life(rifle guy here) . I do tend to over chamfer but they all seated fine (Speer 55 grain varmint)

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[jmorris]

Expanders come in different styles but they do not "bell" the case. Even though they may be tapered they do not create a tapered neck because of their shape.

They are ran completely into (below the neck) and out of the case during the sizing operation so the ID of the neck is based on the OD of the expander and not intended to taper or bell the neck. Pointer at the expander.

There are some exceptions to this, like collet dies that squeeze the case around a mandrel or bushing dies used without an expander but neither of them "bells" or is intended to create a tapered neck either.

Despite what method you use, you don't want any bullet to just slide in, they should all be a press fit. That was what I was asking when I inquired what the OD of a case was before and after a bullet had been seated in it.

 

[nukeandjuke]

bottle neck rifle cases do not get expanded



The case mouth needs to be chamfered after trimming

allowing bullet to go into case and be seated

( hand tool )( not expensive )

I agree. I also add...if u don't have a case gage for riffle round. You are wasting your time.


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[Nick_C_S]

I would say your issue with flat based bullets has to do with the resizing of the case neck, specifically it is too small.

Well yes. Exactly. I know this.

The case mouth needs to be chamfered after trimming

allowing bullet to go into case and be seated

( hand tool )( not expensive )

I agree.

Not sure how many more times I need to mention this: Yes - I chamfered every case. One so much so that I chamfered it to the point were I was removing material on the OUTSIDE of the case and thus shortening it - you can't chamfer any more than that. And the bullet STILL wouldn't seat. Alright? Everybody got this? I chamfered.

I also add...if u don't have a case gage for rifle round. You are wasting your time.

I have a case guage - I already mentioned this too.

Seems to me, if you're loading flat based bullets, the neck would have to have a flair to it, because if the neck was big enough to accept the bullet, then the bullet would just drop into the case. And simply chamfering is clearly not the solution.

Regarding the issue of flat base bullets, I use Lee resizing dies with decapping pin. The pin has a "bell" on it which opens the case mouth to the proper dimension when it comes out.

Now this makes sense.

And I have plenty of dexterity. I have small hands and am quite adroit with them. I spent my childhood building models with small parts, etc. Preforming delicate operations with my hands is one of my strong suits - has been all my life.

 

[PhantomI]

Nick, when I seat .223 flat base bullets (Sierra 52 grain) on my single stage press its a matter of holding onto bullet as I feed into the seating die. The bullets almost never will sit atop the case without falling off. I am using a regular RBCS die set for 223 Rem not the small base set you have. I have never mangled a piece of brass doing this. I too use one shot with out issue. Good stuff. I would try using another sizing die and see if that helps.

Good luck.
Tom

 

[Nick_C_S]

Nick, when I seat .223 flat base bullets (Sierra 52 grain) on my single stage press its a matter of holding onto bullet as I feed into the seating die.

I tried that. It deformed the mouth and wrecked the brass. Maybe I just need more practice with it.

The bullets almost never will sit atop the case without falling off.

For me so far, it's not "almost," it's "never."

I am using a regular RBCS die set for 223 Rem not the small base set you have.

I also have a regular set (not Small Base); but I assume the mouth expansion part is the same diameter and thus, would have the same result. I could measure the two, I suppose. I'm curious to know what that dimension is anyway.

I have never mangled a piece of brass doing this.

I did

I too use one shot with out issue. Good stuff.

I only used the One Shot because that's what I had. I went to my LGS and got a lube pad and lubed it up today. I also have a bunch of brass tumbling right now. I'm going to process them and play around more. Including taking some measurements (as requested by jmorris in a previous post) and whatnot. Gather more information and try the whole thing again. I still feel like I'm missing something. It can't be this hard to seat a bullet, or nobody would be loading flat based rifle bullets. At least nobody who values their time and stress level.

I would try using another sizing die and see if that helps.

I am going to order the Lee universal flair die (as reddog81 mentioned).

So I'll play around some more and let everyone know how it goes.

Thanks for the help and tips everyone. It's appreciated.

 

[jmorris]

While we are waiting on your measurements, on your seating die, do you have the die all the way down to the shell holder/plate, then lower the stem to get to your seating depth vs having the stem lower and the die up off the shell holder/plate?

 

[firewrench044]

I used the wrong term or word

Sorry

Bottle neck cases do not get belled

The necks are expanded to the proper size
with the sizing die assembly

 

[Metal god]

Well it's about time , haha . I was wondering when you were going to start loading those 223 case . Maybe i'll finally be able to help you out aftef all the hand gun help you've given me .

I think jmorris is on to something here . What are your before and after neck measurements . Also what's the inside diameter of your sized neck compared to the bullets diameter ? If it's a several thousandths difference . That could cause problems with flat based bullets . My thinking is your expander for what ever reason is not opening up your neck enough . If your expander is on the smaller size and your case necks are on the thicker side . That can result in the inside diameter of your necks being to small to allow that flat based bullet to enter

I've never had the issue you're having but I use very little flat based bullets . The other thing that may be happening is the bullet is canting to much just before the seating stem makes contact and is trying to seat the bullet at an angle which will never allow the bullet to seat .

I mostly use Redding dies and my seating dies actually straighten the bullet just before seating but thats with BT bullets

 

[snuffy]

Yep, I finally pushed aside the procrastination and loaded up some 223.

I had brass that had been corn cob tumbled, but that's as far as I had gone with them.

I used Hornaday's One Shot spray lube. I've heard that it can be problematic with rifle cases (works great with pistol). So I sprayed some on a paper towel and hand-applied it to the case. I had a case lube pad; but seemed to have misplaced it (found the lube for it, but no pad). I plan on getting another one, unless somebody has a better idea on how to lube 223 cases for FL sizing. I started with nine cases (I just grabbed a hand full and proceeded - that's the only reason why I chose nine).

My dies (RCBS Small Base) are brand new and uncleaned. So I had to clean them. I re-read my Speer manual on rifle loading. Set my size die and proceeded with caution. I guess stuck cases is a thing with rifle, so I moved slow. The first couple cases, I pulled them out prior to completing the press stroke and re-lubed (very lightly). They went fine. The remaining seven went faster. All went well.

I cleaned the primer pockets and then trimmed. I have one of those trimmers that fit on the end of a drill - nifty item. I was shooting for 1.750" on the trim. The closest case I had to that was 1.747 - close enough. I used it to set my trimmer. Worked great - they all trimmed to 1.747 (except for a couple that were already a little short). chamfered and deburred. After trimming, I put them in one of those case test gauge block thingies - pass.

If you used a standard inside chamfer tool, there's your problem. You should get a VLD chamfer tool like this; https://www.midwayusa.com/product/135615/lyman-case-prep-multi-toolThe standard chamfer tool cuts a 45 degree chamfer, while the Lyman VLD chamfer tool cuts (IIRC) a 22 degree angle. This allows a flat based bullet to enter the mouth more easily.


Ran into a problem:

I couldn't seat the bullet (dummy rounds) because the neck had no flair at all and the bullets (Sierra 55gn Blitz #1345) were square based (not boat tail). I tried a couple and managed to wreck a piece of brass - just won't seat. I have three bullet types, fortunately (also Sierra 55gn HPBT #1390; and Hornaday 55gn V-max) one of the three (Sierra 1390) was a boat tail - thankfully - so I managed to mock up a couple dummies and get my seater die set to an OAL of 2.241" (was shooting for 2.240" per Sierra - close enough). Set for a very mild crimp.

Question: I still need to know how to get the other two bullet types seated. Is there a die available that expands the case mouth? I don't want to be restricted to only boat tail bullet profiles, because I can't get the square based ones started. I feel like I'm missing something because I've been lurking for a long time and never heard of this problem. Any insight here would be a big help.

Time to prime. I primed the remaining six pieces of brass with my Lee Auto Prime and my CCI 400 primers. That went smooth - no different than the pistol brass I've been loading with a Lee Auto Prime for the last 32+ years.

Time to charge. Used AA-2230 and the starting load of 23.3 grains - per Sierra's load manual. The only hiccup here was that my large nozzle thingy on my RCBS Uniflow power hopper was too big and spilled power about. I dug out the box (32 yeas old and covered in dust) and in it was the small nozzle. Problem solved. The next six drops went perfect. Observed the powder level - check!

With the seat die already set, their trip through the press (using my 32 year old RCBS "RS-2" single stage, by the way - no Dillon progressive here) went quick and smooth. OAL = 2.241" Book spec = 2.240" - close enough. Re-tested them in the gauge block - pass.

So I have six rounds I'm going to have to test some day soon - if it ever quits raining here in northern California. Not that I'm complaining - we need the water; after five years of drought. I have two AR-15's that I built out really nice with the help of a knowledgeable friend. One, I took to the range once about a month ago - shot 57 rounds. The other is unfired. Otherwise, I have fired no other AR's. I'm not a rifle guy. This is all new to me.

I didn't write this just to ramble on (okay, maybe a little ). I'm actually looking for any insight that others might have regarding how I did. And more importantly, how I can do better. Or if you think I may have missed something, etc. Process improvements, you know. I'm normally among the journeyman here on TFL when it comes to pistol. This is something of a role-reversal. It's all good.

Thanks for listening.