Best quote of the whole thread:
MrSardonicus said:
I am not in favor of closing the so-called "gun show loop hole", I'm in favor of cutting all the strings used to knot the loops in the first place!
Oh my, where to start in on this.
- None of the gun laws prevent criminals from getting guns. See crime statistics.
- The [anti-gun] goal is cradle-to-grave registration of all guns.
- The above plan will not prevent criminals from getting guns.
- With complete registration, it will be the average citizen who trips up over some regulation that suffers prosecution more so than the gang bangers or street thug. The latter will plea bargain off the gun charges.
- The RKBA implies the ability and right to purchase both the firearms and ammunition. Keep and Bear are rights. The argument will be made that purchase is not. That's as silly as saying we have a right to publish freely, but not a right to buy ink or printing presses.
- If "registration for militia purposes" is the stated purpose, the gov't needs only to know the cartridge used, type of gun, action-type and zip-code where the gun resides. Nothing more.
- Government cannot exercise prior restraint on a right. That is, they cannot require you to get their approval to exercise a right. They can only deny rights for cause.
- As implemented, I argue the NICS methodology is an unconstitutional burden imposed by the government.
- The sale, trade, or barter of private property is none of the government's business. Claiming an "interstate commerce" exception to regulate sales of previously sold goods is a perversion of the commerce clause.
NICS is a chokepoint on the sales of all firearms. One person asked how long gun shows could continue if NICS was down during significant periods on weekends. This is a credible point and the issue goes beyond mere tin-foil paranoia.
Many things can happen to prevent a NICS check. Weather, equipment failure, accident, fire, power failure, terrorist attack, even a major solar storm. Bad weather in or near the facility used for NICS could deny checks across the country. Localized or regional outages can occur through the other means listed above. Anyone remember a large internet outage in the late 90's due to a backhoe operator digging up a backbone cable in Texas? I sure do.
The power to delay the exercise of a right is the power to deny the right. Delaying someone's right by days is
not trivial. Especially when the desire is to exercise the right as quickly as possible (i.e. today). I would argue that delaying the right by more than about 90 minutes, fails.
Lastly, the government cannot "approve" the exercise of a right. They can only deny it for cause - such as a felon attempting to vote or denial of an assembly because it is not peaceable. That those with ambigious names (John Smith, Sally Brown, etc.) may have their rights denied based on government inability to keep accurate records does not excuse the violation of their rights.
If the government cannot deny a NICS check, there is no reason to delay it beyond a "reasonable time". I define that as 90 minutes, as requiring a 2nd trip to the FFL is an unnecessary burden. Let the gov't correct any errors after the fact, not the seller.
The kiosk idea has some merit. A pre-approved NICS check with a clearance-number the FFL or seller writes down on the receipt, 4473 or other place for their records. Such a number exempts the FFL/seller from liability and gives the buyer a record too. But if the NICS system is down or unreachable for more than [30 | 60] minutes it is up to the government to correct any error that occurs.
I'm not sure if there is a law prohibiting Congress from
defunding the NICS system. But that is exactly what congress did for the program by which felons can get their federal rights restored. If that happened, the the entire [inefficient] cost of running the system would then have to be apportioned to the users of NICS - the FFLs. That could make the cost of a NICS check skyrocket to the unaffordable. An addendum should be added to the law that says if congress doesn't fund the program it ceases to exist along with all requirements to perform such a check.
Crime, deterrence and punishment
Deterrence is telling little Bobby that if he filches a cookie before dinner, he'll get a spanking or be forced to stay in his room. With adults, it is the cost of fines and/or losing their liberties for some period of time. But given crime stats, obviously there are those who think that "a couple o' years ain't nutthin'" in order for them to do what they want. In short, it would appear that the punishment is bearable for a majority of criminals.
Change that.
Rather than burden
the citizens attempting to exercise their rights,
increase the penalties for those prohibited persons who violate the law. Make the first offense punishable by 8 years in jail and then double the sentence for each subsequent prosecution.
Want to make it more likely that private sales will prevent purchase by prohibited persons? Exempt the seller from liability if he obtains an "authorization" number from NICS using either a telephone number or a website that prompts him for the required information. Without the number, if the purchaser commits a crime or is a prohibited person, the seller may incur some liability (either criminal or civil).
(Note: this should not include "registration" information)
For buyers, it would be worth the effort to create a website that allows buyers to determine if a gun for sale is listed as stolen or "lost", too.
Increase the penalty for being a felon in possession of a firearm. It's a
2nd strike so the penalty should be severe - 8-12 years in prison.
Increase the penalties for a prohibited person using (firing) a firearm in a crime. Double the length of a sentence if they actually fire the gun.
Increase the penalty for the theft of firearms. A residential burglar who steals a firearm should receive a longer sentence than one who doesn't steal a firearm. Add more time if they transfer possession to another prohibited person.
If we turn "gun control" on it's head by
increasing the penalties for felons in possession, use of a firearm in a crime and theft of a firearm, then the
only people impacted are the criminals.
Turn it on it's head completely by eliminating the FFL requirement and most of the paperwork. Keep a NICS type system to make it easier for everyone. Limit and prohibit the
criminals from having them and prosecute them vigorously.
Final note: we cannot achieve utopia with either method simply because any otherwise decent person can choose to commit their
first crime. Laws can only punish for things people have
already done, not what they
might do. Those who choose to violate the law risk a long time in jail, including the rest of their lives in some cases.
