Laser usefullness?
- Thread starter Jeeper
- Start date
I've long since learned not to try and dissuade someone that's intent on buying a visible laser light device for their weapon ... or, naturally, speak ill of one that's already been purchased and installed on someone's weapon.
However ... I have yet to see anyone using one actually demonstrate how it's more effective than sight alignment or sight picture, or how it's faster for unsighted close quarter use, for general defensive application.
Instead, I've watched a lot of civilian CCW folks, and some off duty L/E folks, take longer than necessary to shoot their laser device equipped weapons. They just couldn't make the little red dot remain steady enough for them to feel confident they were "aimed" ... or they took far longer to focus on the little red dot, which isn't all that much more visible in "twilight" lighting conditions ... or their device was one of those that required more attention for its operation than should probably be devoted to the weapon under times of stress ... or the device simply failed during shooting, and the shooter "locked up" for whatever reason, and simply couldn't revert back to using the sights. The, "Hey! It's never done THAT before ..." reaction is more frustrating to them than it is to me ... but I'm careful not to speak badly of their choice of optional equipment ...
I guess I have no use for them in "normal" defensive situations, myself ... but that's not to say that someone else wouldn't have a use for them, I suppose ...
Now, some of the smaller white light sources, though ...
However ... I have yet to see anyone using one actually demonstrate how it's more effective than sight alignment or sight picture, or how it's faster for unsighted close quarter use, for general defensive application.
Instead, I've watched a lot of civilian CCW folks, and some off duty L/E folks, take longer than necessary to shoot their laser device equipped weapons. They just couldn't make the little red dot remain steady enough for them to feel confident they were "aimed" ... or they took far longer to focus on the little red dot, which isn't all that much more visible in "twilight" lighting conditions ... or their device was one of those that required more attention for its operation than should probably be devoted to the weapon under times of stress ... or the device simply failed during shooting, and the shooter "locked up" for whatever reason, and simply couldn't revert back to using the sights. The, "Hey! It's never done THAT before ..." reaction is more frustrating to them than it is to me ... but I'm careful not to speak badly of their choice of optional equipment ...
I guess I have no use for them in "normal" defensive situations, myself ... but that's not to say that someone else wouldn't have a use for them, I suppose ...
Now, some of the smaller white light sources, though ...
Actually, that was a couple of the devices used by people to which I made reference in my post ...
Naturally, one of the things that can mitigate, or completely alleviate, many of the shooter-induced problems with these devices is specific training geared to the proper operation of them incorporated into the individual's shooting style, skills, techniques, etc.
It seems to be a situation similar to how a lot of firearm owners give barely minimal attention to training and practice. They give very little thought to the proper utilization of these supplemental aiming devices. Based upon some conversations it seems many users purchased them so they wouldn't have to think about aiming as much as they would with regular sights.
As a happy and confident owner & user of 2 of the CT devices, you're obviously far ahead of the curve in this regard ...
Cool ...
Naturally, one of the things that can mitigate, or completely alleviate, many of the shooter-induced problems with these devices is specific training geared to the proper operation of them incorporated into the individual's shooting style, skills, techniques, etc.
It seems to be a situation similar to how a lot of firearm owners give barely minimal attention to training and practice. They give very little thought to the proper utilization of these supplemental aiming devices. Based upon some conversations it seems many users purchased them so they wouldn't have to think about aiming as much as they would with regular sights.
As a happy and confident owner & user of 2 of the CT devices, you're obviously far ahead of the curve in this regard ...
Cool ...
In theory, you wouldn't be looking at the sights on your gun. You'd just place the dot on your target and fire. In reality...? I have a set of Crimson Trace grips that fit my J-Frames. It turns the gun into an point-and-click. It's a fun toy, and is very accurate when sighted in properly. However, in a stress situation I (that's me - can't speak for anyone else) would find them a bit confusing since I'm so conditioned to use my front sight. I do find the laser sights helpful for dry-firing practice. Lets me see exactly how much I'm jerking the muzzle when I pull the trigger. At the range I find them very uncomfortable. They're hard plastic and are not as easy on the hands as rubber grips. Last time I used my laser grips on my Smith 642 I got a pretty bad blister on my thumb. I don't have that problem when using my usual Bantam grips.
I bought a LaserMax (replaces guide rod) for my Glock right when they came out.
Really only an expensive toy. I'm almost embarassed to turn it on at the range because everyone thinks you are trying to impress them. However, everyone wants to try it.
Really only useful for dry-fire training and intimidation. Have also had decent results in low-light, slow-fire distance shooting.
Really only an expensive toy. I'm almost embarassed to turn it on at the range because everyone thinks you are trying to impress them. However, everyone wants to try it.
Really only useful for dry-fire training and intimidation. Have also had decent results in low-light, slow-fire distance shooting.
Maybe for a modified laser-guided cowboy-type "point shooting" or hip shooting. That'll be cool...
Could also be used for clearing operations where the gun is held one hand hip-high, flashlight held in the other. If the perp happens to have a club and smacks you in the flashlght holding arm, you've still got your good arm holding the pistol, align the dot with your peripheral vision and shoot away.
Of course, that's my Hollywood version of a laser's use
Could also be used for clearing operations where the gun is held one hand hip-high, flashlight held in the other. If the perp happens to have a club and smacks you in the flashlght holding arm, you've still got your good arm holding the pistol, align the dot with your peripheral vision and shoot away.
Of course, that's my Hollywood version of a laser's use
From a laser owner/user..
evidentally it depends a lot on the quality and type of unit you have
I've got an M6 on the rail of my G20. If you haven't used one, they have a 3 position switch. You can choose laser dot, flashlight, or combo. The rocker switch flips it on with your support hand. This is my nightstand gun. Much easier and quicker to use than it sounds.
It's educational when you try to dry fire. I shoot a fair amount and thought I had pretty good trigger control until I tried to hold the red dot totally steady at 40 feet. Now, I'm the first to admit that Glocks have poor trigger break, but the first few times I tried it the dot really moved.
I have a good friend thats a County Sheriff and has an M3 (light only) on his duty gun. He works thirds and says it's great for clearing houses. One hand runs the gun and the other is free to open doors, move curtains, etc. Hard to do when you've got a mag light in one hand and a gun in the other. The light is extremely bright, considerably brighter than a regular flashlight.
I live in a rural area and it's pretty dark outside the house. Also, my eyes aren't so young anymore and trying to pick up back sight, front sight, and watch someone at the same time might be tough.
The above comment about watching the sights and the dot was interesting. Guess I do it wrong. I've got it sighted at 50 feet. Wherever the dot is the bullet goes.
I find the deragotory comments from guys that have never used them or bought cheap junk ones that clip on interesting. If they're so terrible, what do the Military and LEo's use them?
It's one thing that may give you an edge. Worst case, I've still got night sights.
evidentally it depends a lot on the quality and type of unit you have
I've got an M6 on the rail of my G20. If you haven't used one, they have a 3 position switch. You can choose laser dot, flashlight, or combo. The rocker switch flips it on with your support hand. This is my nightstand gun. Much easier and quicker to use than it sounds.
It's educational when you try to dry fire. I shoot a fair amount and thought I had pretty good trigger control until I tried to hold the red dot totally steady at 40 feet. Now, I'm the first to admit that Glocks have poor trigger break, but the first few times I tried it the dot really moved.
I have a good friend thats a County Sheriff and has an M3 (light only) on his duty gun. He works thirds and says it's great for clearing houses. One hand runs the gun and the other is free to open doors, move curtains, etc. Hard to do when you've got a mag light in one hand and a gun in the other. The light is extremely bright, considerably brighter than a regular flashlight.
I live in a rural area and it's pretty dark outside the house. Also, my eyes aren't so young anymore and trying to pick up back sight, front sight, and watch someone at the same time might be tough.
The above comment about watching the sights and the dot was interesting. Guess I do it wrong. I've got it sighted at 50 feet. Wherever the dot is the bullet goes.
I find the deragotory comments from guys that have never used them or bought cheap junk ones that clip on interesting. If they're so terrible, what do the Military and LEo's use them?
It's one thing that may give you an edge. Worst case, I've still got night sights.
kidcoltoutlaw
New member
who makes an internal laser for a sig,thanks,keith
I got mine from the folks at...
http://www.lasermax-inc.com
BTW, don't know what's the scoop on the laser unit for the P225 being LEO.
http://www.lasermax-inc.com
BTW, don't know what's the scoop on the laser unit for the P225 being LEO.
I recently purchased a CT for my Sp101 3” and I’m very impressed with its brightness and usefulness in potential SD situations. It also has an on/off switch that I can use when I practice using my sights only. I have a clamp-on laser for my HD 12ga but that’s on there only for the potential intimidation factor.
donglock26
New member
We discussed this at Glock armorer school. The instructor was a veteran big city LEO and his opinion was that it slowed you down. In a close-up gunfight, you should be putting the front sight on the subj's upper chest and shooting. This can be done faster than looking for the dot. I agree with him.
Crimson Trace
New member
Hi all. Let me give a little feedback here before I have to take off.
First off it seems that both sven and blades are very anti-laser. I would ask each of you to tell me about your experience with lasers. Please. I have found that many people were really turned off by the early pistol lasers that were really just toys. Have you every worked with our product?
A lasers main advantages are that of speed and accuracy. Think how the fastest competitive shooters are doing it. Red dot optics and target focus. That's exactly what the laser is doing. Allowing you to just focus on the target and putting your sight on the target instead of lining up 4 points. (head, rear sight, front sight and target). Really, which is more simple.
In a defense situation, the bodies natural reaction is to look at the threat, not our sights. A laser works perfectly with how our bodies want to respond anyway.
Nobody here is every going to say, "throw away your iron sights" because that's not reality. Reality is that laser sights are a tool that give you additional options.
We teach agencies who issue our product a detailed "Transition" course. The short story is that drawing and presenting a laser equipped pistol is just like with an iron sighted unit. Except - target focus, the dot will be there. The vast majority of people I have worked with find the laser much faster.
"What about daylight. You can't see a laser in daylight!"
True enough. But let's keep it in perspective. NIJ says about 80% of shoots are in low-light. How do you like those odds? Laser is also very visible indoors where a good chunk (sorry, still working on hard numbers) of shoots occur. A laser is also quite visible in shade/shadows outside.
If it is stark daylight, nothing about having a laser on your pistol is a handicap. Just go right back to irons.
To which some may respond: "But you'll forget how to use irons if you shoot with a laser."
OK. THAT is a training issue. NOT a laser issue. I always include somewhere in my presentations that, "We can't cure stupid" A laser is just a tool. Its all up to the operator after that.
Got to address this one:
"Lasers will ruin your marksmanship"
Can someone please introduce me to a shooter that has had his marksmanship skills "ruined" by using a laser? I would like to meet them. On the other hand, I can introduce you to shooters and trainers who have found the laser a valuable tool both at improving their skills and working with students.
Laser is also a very valuable tool for hi-risk custodies. They allow full vision of subject/surroundings while confirming aim. This means you can get a full look at your subject/threat without having your pistol blocking your full field of vision.
The dot also communicates to others around that, "this guy is covered". And, "When you're walking up to cuff that guy, don't cover yourself with my gun."
Sorry, that's all I have time for right now. Thanks for taking the time to read. I'm sure we'll have lots of "Q&A" later.
Best regards,
-Z
First off it seems that both sven and blades are very anti-laser. I would ask each of you to tell me about your experience with lasers. Please. I have found that many people were really turned off by the early pistol lasers that were really just toys. Have you every worked with our product?
A lasers main advantages are that of speed and accuracy. Think how the fastest competitive shooters are doing it. Red dot optics and target focus. That's exactly what the laser is doing. Allowing you to just focus on the target and putting your sight on the target instead of lining up 4 points. (head, rear sight, front sight and target). Really, which is more simple.
In a defense situation, the bodies natural reaction is to look at the threat, not our sights. A laser works perfectly with how our bodies want to respond anyway.
Nobody here is every going to say, "throw away your iron sights" because that's not reality. Reality is that laser sights are a tool that give you additional options.
We teach agencies who issue our product a detailed "Transition" course. The short story is that drawing and presenting a laser equipped pistol is just like with an iron sighted unit. Except - target focus, the dot will be there. The vast majority of people I have worked with find the laser much faster.
"What about daylight. You can't see a laser in daylight!"
True enough. But let's keep it in perspective. NIJ says about 80% of shoots are in low-light. How do you like those odds? Laser is also very visible indoors where a good chunk (sorry, still working on hard numbers) of shoots occur. A laser is also quite visible in shade/shadows outside.
If it is stark daylight, nothing about having a laser on your pistol is a handicap. Just go right back to irons.
To which some may respond: "But you'll forget how to use irons if you shoot with a laser."
OK. THAT is a training issue. NOT a laser issue. I always include somewhere in my presentations that, "We can't cure stupid" A laser is just a tool. Its all up to the operator after that.
Got to address this one:
"Lasers will ruin your marksmanship"
Can someone please introduce me to a shooter that has had his marksmanship skills "ruined" by using a laser? I would like to meet them. On the other hand, I can introduce you to shooters and trainers who have found the laser a valuable tool both at improving their skills and working with students.
Laser is also a very valuable tool for hi-risk custodies. They allow full vision of subject/surroundings while confirming aim. This means you can get a full look at your subject/threat without having your pistol blocking your full field of vision.
The dot also communicates to others around that, "this guy is covered". And, "When you're walking up to cuff that guy, don't cover yourself with my gun."
Sorry, that's all I have time for right now. Thanks for taking the time to read. I'm sure we'll have lots of "Q&A" later.
Best regards,
-Z