Laser: Crutch or Useful

[j3ffr0]

My thought is this....should something ever come up, chances are I am going to be a little groggy, my hand eye coordination may not be 100% and chances are its going to be dark.

Actually the chances are if something ever really comes up most everyone's hand eye coordination is going to be far, far less than 100%. Some folks really think that when they see a guy who might be reaching for something they are really going not be looking at the guy at all anymore -- they are instead going to be looking at their trusty irons and never need to take a peek again to see what the bad man pulled out of his pocket or if he's really a threat. Really? Who's going to shoot a guy who you thought might have a gun, but you never actually saw it? Anyone with a decent head and instincts will take a another good long peek before shooting. Once you take that peek you are going to have to refocus on your irons... probably in dim light, when your hand/eye coordination is total crap because you are experiencing a bigger adrenaline dump than you've ever imagined in your life. Why do you guys think hit rates in self defense shootings are what they are given the close ranges that the shootings take place at? It is because of the factors above.

At least the laser shortens the aiming process and lets us keep our eyes where they need to be in a tactical situation -- on the threat. Some believe that training can override millions of years of evolutionary instincts that are built into us humans. When we are threatened we tend to instinctively focus on the threat (seems reasonable doesn't it).

I'm not among those who think that attempting to acquire an iron sight picture and going against my natural born instinct to focus on a threat that would be severe enough to cause me to draw a gun in the first place is a good idea. I feel like if I was faced with such a terrible threat, I'd need to see every detail of what's threatening me right up until, during, and after every pull of the trigger. Lasers and rectile type sights are the only devices that let a person do that.

We are all handicapped. We can't focus on the front sight post and make out all the details of what a threat may be doing at the same time. This handicapped person is taking a crutch.

 

[Theohazard]

"I realized I would have to learn a whole different aiming/presentation method"

Can you explain this?

I draw / aim the same way with or without the laser.

I have the same problem he does. I'm used to focusing on the front sight. So when I try a gun with a laser it takes me a bit longer because instead of focusing on the front sight, I'm focusing on the target and trying to find where the laser is.

 

[Eppie]

Thank you j3ffr0

Thank you j3ffr0 for taking the time to explicitly explain the reason why laser are superior.

However, just as there are people who still believe that the Earth is flat, there are people who will continue to insist that iron sights are better, and no reason is going to convince them. My dad used to say the "The strongest force in the universe is a closed mind, nothing can pry it open".

 

[Gaerek]

Thank you j3ffr0 for taking the time to explicitly explain the reason why laser are superior.

However, just as there are people who still believe that the Earth is flat, there are people who will continue to insist that iron sights are better, and no reason is going to convince them. My dad used to say the "The strongest force in the universe is a closed mind, nothing can pry it open".

Loving the pseudo insult here.

I've tested both irons and lasers in as stressful an environment as I can without actually being in a gun fight. Irons were still substantially faster at acquiring a target.

If lasers are so great, how come they aren't standard issue for police? How come, even though the military has them, they don't really use them? (From my Army Major brother-in-law who says that except for a few select and rare circumstances, they're all but useless). If lasers were this amazing thing that are far better than iron sights we'd be seeing huge adoption of them by major police forces in the US, except, we're not seeing that.

http://www.realpolice.net/forums/archive/t-32135.html

Police forum where the majority opinion is they aren't very helpful or useful. I understand that police needs are different than SD needs, but the rationale being given is that lasers are superior to iron sights in nearly every way. If that we're truly the case, police would be using them.

I'll still go back to one of my original statements. If it works for you, fine, it works for you. But you can't come here and claim that lasers are this wonderful end all be all, when the evidence to show that is almost nil.

As to the OPs question, yes, lasers are a crutch. It's something that is used because its simpler (simpler is not always better) and more intuitive to use, and makes up for a lack of skill or ability. This is not an insult. If you have bad vision, you need a crutch, the same as if you have a bad leg. Irons are proven to be quicker to use and more accurate. This isn't an opinion.

Anyway, this is a topic that's already been beaten to death. The evidence is there, some just choose to ignore and and believe what they see on TV and on movies. This being the case, I'm done with the thread. I know what works. I know what the pros say on this topic. A few contrary opinions by what is perceived by me to be random people on the Internet isn't enough to sway me or anyone else who knows the truth in this matter.

 

[Big-Blue]

Reading through these posts has been interesting. But if I'm not mistaken, mounting a laser on a gun does not replace the iron sights. Both are available. The key is to practice with both, and to not rely on either one alone.

 

[Eppie]

You are correct. A laser supplemets the iron sights, and as I mentioned earlier, in bright sunlight (most of the times I go to the range) you need them.

 

[PawPaw]

I recently injured my foot, and I find a crutch to be extremely useful. The two are not incompatible.

That having been said, the most dramatic use I've seen of a laser is in building clearing. A couple of years ago I was dispatched to the local high school where a motion sensor was screaming. We got there about the same time as the principal, who unlocked the door for us. My partner stepped into the darkened hall, drew his pistol and illuminated a guy standing in the hall with his laser. "Get down, get down, get down!" The perp saw the laser on his chest and went prone. We cuffed him, charged him, drove him downtown.

Disclaimer: I don't have a laser on my handgun, but this single incident was very educational. Oh, and the foot is getting better, thank you. I should be back at work in another week or so.

 

[Eppie]

Here's my story. I was out trimming my trees in the front yard, I live at the end of a cul-de-sac, and my Dobermann puppy (6 months) was with me. I was training him to stay close by letting him drag a 25' rope. While I was tying a bundle of branches a pick up truck came in the cul-de-sac and stopped. I had my back to the truck and my dog. When I turned around about a minute later I saw the guy had gotten out of his truck and picked up the rope and was taking my dog back to his truck. I called my dog and he tried to come but the guy held him back, so I called out to him while walking towards him. I asked him what he was doing and he said that he had lost the dog and now was taking him back. I told him that was my dog and he responded that it was his dog. I told him the dog was microchiped and I could prove it was mine and any of my neighbors will attest to that. I was about 20' away.

To put in things in prespective, I'm close to 60, 5'8" and weigh 156 lbs. the other guy, I call Bubba, was about 3o years old, 6'4" and husky. My dog is 6 months old, friendly, beautiful and costs me $3,000.

Bubba looked at me and he said this was his dog and he was going to take him home. I had my LCP with my Crimson Trace laser in the front pocket of my jeans and my hand was on it. I pointed to his zipper and said " Do you see that red dot by your zipper?" He looked down and while he did so I drew my pistol and aimed right on his family jewels. Then in a calm voice I said "That's were the first bullet is going to go if you don't let go of that dog."

He looked up and saw the gun in my hand, Bubba's eyes got as big a silver dollars and he simultaneously dropped the rope and said "S**T!!" and remained frozen. I told him to get back in his truck and that if I saw him again I would assume that he means to harm me and that I would shoot first and ask questions later.

He got in his truck and I haven't seen him once in the last four years.

I am firmly committed to conflict avoidance, deterrence and defense.

 

[Munkster]

Shoot and become proficient with your weapon and only after that imho i would think about a laser. If you start looking for the lasers dot before you line up your sights your in trouble