Laser: Crutch or Useful

springer99

New member
"I have never had a laser on any of my guns. I'm wondering if they are useful in conceal carry or home defense or if they promote bad habits and also, should new shooters use them?

I am not a new shooter but my wife is. "

I don't consider lasers to be anymore of a crutch than using night sights or a telescope on a rifle. My ultimate goal when picking up ane firearm is that I need to see the sights clearly enough to define the target involved. If that involves a target at 100yds or more, then I prefer a scope. If it involves a much closer target in low/failing light, I'm happy with either night sights or a laser. Of course, if I'm awakened in the middle of the night without my glasses on, then the laser is just the ticket for me. But, that's just me.
 
I am guessing that often after the shooting starts being stealthy is no longer important?

As noted, the SEALs certainly do make use of a lot of covert methods to accomplish their goals, but visible light lasers don't seem to be a normal part of their covert or overt methods most of the time, certainly not as their preferred sight.
 

Big-Blue

New member
"I'm wondering if [lasers] are useful in conceal carry or home defense..."

With a big enough battery the laser is all you need. "Bullets be damned!"

But seriously, I'm planning to have a laser and a flashlight on my Judge as a home defense weapon, but no laser on my carry weapon. I'll have the weapon loaded with two .410 rounds and 5 .45 LC's.

My assumption is that home defense will most likely take place in the dark or in close quarters. In neither situation am I or my wife likely to have the gun stretched out at arms length attempting to aim through the sights at the intruder. It will be down at my side or close to my chest to ensure it is not taken from me. The flashlight is to ensure the intruder is a bad guy, and the laser to to reduce the chances that I will miss and hit someone else.
 

mySig229

New member
The flashlight is to ensure the intruder is a bad guy, and the laser to to reduce the chances that I will miss and hit someone else.

If someone is in my house at night coming down the hall...they're a bad guy. No one has a key to my place and everyone knows, I shoot first. Plus, my 100 pound German Shepherd is a good early warning system. If they got past him...they're probably hoping I'm armed anyway
 

bigghoss

New member
If you find yourself in a fair fight, something went wrong. Call it a crutch if you want but it can be useful and possibly life saving when used properly. Conversely it might potentially give away you position so use discretion. As mentioned earlier, don't forgo training with irons just because you have a laser and don't use it as a substitute for training either. And don't cheap out either. They're not terribly expensive and you may trust your life to it so spend the money and get a quality one.

Everything has limitations to go along with the advantages so always know what you and your equipment are capable of.
 

thedudeabides

New member
I never found the laser to be useful.

I've seen several shooters freeze up during target drills because of a malfunction or they couldn't see the dot in certain lighting conditions, and most H3 night sights are meant to be VERY visible in day and night conditions.
 

Noreaster

New member
I tried a P229 with a crimson trace and I didn't care for it. I found myself chasing the dot all over the target. I don't think I gave it enough time or effort. People with more experience then me seem to like them very much. I can see how it would be useful for SD, maybe even a deterrent.
 

rodfac

New member
Could be very useful in a low light situation...especially at home. My wife has a Crimson Trace on her S&W M637 revolver for that reason, and the same gun doubles as her CCW...that Crimson Trace does not add any bulk.

As a training aid, lasers are fantastic for trigger control and grip consistency problems. As to seeing the sights and your tartget, at night, at any distance over 6 feet or so, tritium sights or a laser are about the only way you're going to be able to get hits, short of a shotgun. Try it sometime...with or without flashlight in the crossed wrist mode...you'll be a believer. I'd opine that most defensive shooting is done in low light situations...you be the judge. Rod
 

Alabama Shooter

New member
As to seeing the sights and your tartget, at night, at any distance over 6 feet or so, tritium sights or a laser are about the only way you're going to be able to get hits, short of a shotgun. Try it sometime...with or without flashlight in the crossed wrist mode...you'll be a believer. I'd opine that most defensive shooting is done in low light situations...you be the judge. Rod

I can manage about 10-15 feet accurately after that the light difference between the sights and the target make it difficult to get the pistol pointed in exactly the right direction. After you get muzzle flash from the first shot than everything goes to pot.
 

cryogenic419

New member
As a training aid they are great. Very easy to spot if somebody is doing something wrong like jerking right before they pull the trigger.

I have one on one of the bedroom guns. My thought is this....should something ever come up, chances are I am going to be a little groggy, my hand eye coordination may not be 100% and chances are its going to be dark.
I feel more confident that the laser will aid me in staying on target in that type of situation as well as lighting up the area somewhat. Definately don't see it as a crutch.
 

Gaerek

New member
They're useful in a small number of situations. A crutch in most others. I typically train for simplicity. That is, I try not to train for using different techniques/equipment for different situations, when one technique/piece of equipment will work for those multiple situations.

For example, some people teach Tap, Rack, for a level one malfunction (failure to fire), teach the Rack and Roll for a level two malfunction (stovepipe), and Rip, Rack, Rack, Reload for a double feed. When I train malfunctions, I train that when my gun goes click instead of bang, to Tap, Rack and Roll since that will clear both Level 1 and Level 2 malfunctions. It's a bit slower, but I don't have to think about the type of malfunction, I just work off instinct.

Same goes for lasers. I don't feel like training on a sight system that will only work for me in a small number of situations. I'd rather train to use the iron (night) sights for all situations. That way, when I am in one of the fairly uncommon situations where a laser might be better, I don't have to think about using a different system. I already know what I'm going to use instinctively.

Having said that, I've seen good arguments for people using them because their eyesight is bad (though, if it's bad enough, I'd slap a reflex on there instead since it'll work in bright light also). In the end, use what works for you.
 

Big-Blue

New member
They're useful in a small number of situations. A crutch in most others. I typically train for simplicity. That is, I try not to train for using different techniques/equipment for different situations, when one technique/piece of equipment will work for those multiple situations.

For example, some people teach Tap, Rack, for a level one malfunction (failure to fire), teach the Rack and Roll for a level two malfunction (stovepipe), and Rip, Rack, Rack, Reload for a double feed. When I train malfunctions, I train that when my gun goes click instead of bang, to Tap, Rack and Roll since that will clear both Level 1 and Level 2 malfunctions. It's a bit slower, but I don't have to think about the type of malfunction, I just work off instinct.

Same goes for lasers. I don't feel like training on a sight system that will only work for me in a small number of situations. I'd rather train to use the iron (night) sights for all situations. That way, when I am in one of the fairly uncommon situations where a laser might be better, I don't have to think about using a different system. I already know what I'm going to use instinctively.

Having said that, I've seen good arguments for people using them because their eyesight is bad (though, if it's bad enough, I'd slap a reflex on there instead since it'll work in bright light also). In the end, use what works for you.

Please explain tap, rack, roll, rip, and reload in the context of a malfunction.

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2
 

Eppie

New member
Bigkrackers

Some people bad mouth lasers because they don't want to spend the money or are just set in their ways.

I got my first laser for an LCP because the sights were so bad. After I used it a few times the light went on. Now I have lasers on all my "business" guns. My range toys (1911) are without lasers.

Like someone else said when the time to use it comes it will be probably somewhere where light conditions make sight acquisition difficult. And those that argue with night sight are obviously night sights salesmen. A laser is the ultimate night sight, point and shoot.

While at the range one day a guy next to me was trying to teach a woman (not his wife) how to shoot at the 5 yard target and she was having a difficult time. I offered her my LCP with the laser, after 3 shots (right on target) she quickly said "That's the gun I want." This was in daylight.

Having said that I can't see the red dot in the bright Houston sun further than 10 yards, but if the sun is behind the clouds I can it it at 15 yards without any problems.

Regarding the comment about not trusting your life to anything that has batteries and circuits, I find that very funny. Do you use a car? About flying an airplane. Obviously you haven't thought this through. Think again...
 

Gaerek

New member
Please explain tap, rack, roll, rip, and reload in the context of a malfunction.

These are just easy to remember steps for clearing malfunctions.

Tap - Tap the magazine (solves failure to feed because mag isn't seated)
Rack - Rack the slide
Roll - Roll the gun 90 degrees towards the direction of the ejection port (combined with a rack, will clear a 'stovepipe' style malfunction)
Rip - Remove the magazine (In cases of a double feed, the mag won't drop free, so you have to hit the mag release and literally rip it out of the mag well. Alternatively, you can lock the slide back before dropping the mag if you don't have the strength to rip it out.)

A failure to fire will feel the same as a stovepipe, so without investigating, sometimes (not always) you won't know which malfunction occurred. Doing a tap, rack and roll ensures that you will clear anything that makes the gun not go bang, whether it's a failure to fire (misfire), failure to feed, or stovepipe. Double feeds are another beast altogether, and require a much more involved drill. If you aren't sure what malfunction you have, many places teach that your automatic response should be a Tap, Rack (roll is usually omitted as part of the mnemonic, but should still be done). If that doesn't clear the failure, it's most likely a double feed, and the Rip, Rack, Rack, Reload should clear it. You really do need to rack twice because a lot of the time the extractor won't be engaged on the first rack. If you only rack once, you're setting yourself up for another double feed.

Keep in mind, the way I learned it, train it, and do it is just one way. Everyone does these drills a little differently. This is what I've learned and how I do it.

Regarding the comment about not trusting your life to anything that has batteries and circuits, I find that very funny. Do you use a car? About flying an airplane. Obviously you haven't thought this through. Think again...

A battery dying in a car isn't usually a life or death situation. I've driven my car without a battery in it (long story...don't ask), it did some funny things, but I was able to drive it the few miles where I needed to go. Even with an electrical failure in the car, the worst thing that happens is you're stalled on the side of a road. In most cases, hardly a life or death situation. Call AAA, get a tow, and you're back in business.

Airplanes are a different story, of course. My Dad has his A&P and was a mechanic on H-60's for over 20 years. Aircraft are incredibly regulated. If there's even an inkling of any kind of electronic malfunction, the aircraft is grounded until it can be solve. This is one of the reasons why it's so safe to fly commercial aircraft. Almost every system has a redundancy, and on critical systems, the redundancies have redundancies.

You simply can't compare a laser sight that can literally mean the difference between life and death, to cars (where a failure is almost never deadly), or to airplanes (which are so heavily regulated, and have all sorts of redundancies built in). You might come back and say that your iron sights are your redundancy. Ok, I can go with that. But if all you're doing is training with a laser (not saying you are...) those backup irons are going to be tougher to use.

It appears you're right. There is, in fact, someone who hasn't thought this through. Cars and airplanes make a terrible analogy to a laser sight.

EDIT: Saw this on your post also.

While at the range one day a guy next to me was trying to teach a woman (not his wife) how to shoot at the 5 yard target and she was having a difficult time. I offered her my LCP with the laser, after 3 shots (right on target) she quickly said "That's the gun I want." This was in daylight.

This pretty much proves the laser is a crutch. I'm assuming he was teaching someone with little or no experience. Basically, instead of using the "always on, always reliable" iron sights, she's going to buy a gun and make sure it has a laser, and rely on that, because it's easier. That's pretty much the definition of crutch...something that makes something easier to make up for a lack of skill/ability.

Having said that I can't see the red dot in the bright Houston sun further than 10 yards, but if the sun is behind the clouds I can it it at 15 yards without any problems.

Shooting at a square range, at immobile paper targets that aren't trying to kill you is one thing. Are you certain that in a dynamic gun fight, where you're moving, the bad guy is moving, your adrenaline is pumping, you're trying to assess the situation (are there innocents behind this guy, etc), you'd be able to see that dot at 10 yards? I'm not saying you won't be able to, but I don't think it would be all that easy for you, or anyone for that matter. That's one of the great things about iron sights...they're always where you left them, no searching.

Some people bad mouth lasers because they don't want to spend the money or are just set in their ways.

I spent the money. I trained on them. I tried to like them (because I wanted to justify the $300 price tag of the TLR-2 I bought). At best, they were hardly better than night sights in situations where lasers are supposed to really shine. At worst, they were far slower for me than iron sights. In any situation, they were less accurate than iron sights. This was discovered after doing IDPA style scenarios with both night sights and lasers in low light and near complete darkness. Sure, I'm set in my ways. My ways were also confirmed (for me) with testing.

Like someone else said when the time to use it comes it will be probably somewhere where light conditions make sight acquisition difficult. And those that argue with night sight are obviously night sights salesmen. A laser is the ultimate night sight, point and shoot.

Not a salesman...I just talk about what I know. In low light, night sights are still faster. In darkness, target acquisition is near impossible with either night sights or laser...you need a light, and that will immediately negate much of the benefit of the little red dot.

In the end, my mantra is to use what works for you. I tried to like lasers (see above) and still found them to be slower to get on target, and slightly less accurate, especially out past 10 yards. I ended up trading my TLR-2 to my brother for his TLR-1 and $80. It's been 4 months, and I still don't regret it. I think he just sold it a few weeks ago himself, or at least he told me he was going to sell it, for much the same reason I did. He wanted his TLR-1 back...I laughed at him. :)
 
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robhof

New member
robhof

I practiced with mine alot when I 1st got it and it's very useful for developing muscle memory without using alot of ammo. I have a Crimson Trace on my M9 and have practiced enough that I can draw and shoot without aiming and get consistent center mass shots on a target at 10yds(practical SD distance). It could come in handy, if being shot at to hold around a barrier and peek from a different angle to minimize exposure; far better than spray and pray!!:rolleyes::D
 

lcpiper

New member
I had a pistol with a laser on it. The laser was cute at first, then I realized I would have to learn a whole different aiming/presentation method.

No way, it's gone. You need to train the same way every time, hone the muscle memory. You may be the kind of person unable to really think well when rattled.

If you are, I suggest you learn to start shooting before you get all jumpity :p
 

springer99

New member
Yup, lasers on pistols are a crutch, that's for sure. I'm one of those that is happy to admit that I take advantage of that crutch for my HD weapons. Figure that if I need to use it, it'll most likely be at night, when I can't find my d... glasses.:D

Now, on the other hand. Outdoors on the 25yd and 50yd line, I tend to use a red-dot as my crutch of preference over irons, when shooting bullseye. Much easier for my old eyes to get on target.

AFAIC, ALL sights are a crutch of one type or another. It's just up to each one to find out which one works best for them under the circumstances. You'll never know for sure unless you give them a try though.;)
 

tekarra

New member
I have an older friend who has great difficulty seeing iron sights, since we put a laser on his pistol, he is back to enjoying shhooting. Maybe it is a crutch.
 

DasGuy

New member
"I realized I would have to learn a whole different aiming/presentation method"

Can you explain this?

I draw / aim the same way with or without the laser.
 
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