Is this an ND waiting to happen?

[Majic]

simply not buying a XD does not solve the controversial design issue.

Where is it a controversy except with you?
And how do a safety that you have to manually disengage become a passive safety? A ND is never the fault of the handgun no matter how it's design. By definition it's operator error. If you can't safely operate a mechanical device then don't look to blame the device for your negligence.

 

[auto45]

Although debatable, it's considered "safer" than the traditional SA action(1911) because of the LONG trigger throw IMHO.

The only reason DAO actions exist is because they assume your finger will be on the trigger even though you "intend" not to fire...IMO. It gives you "time/distance" to "pull back". You don't have that "time" with a SA trigger.

While the XD is a SA by defination, it doesn't matter to the shooter since the trigger pull is long like a Glock, it has FP block, trigger block and the grip safety actually blocks the sear...unlike the 1911. So, I can't see how it's any different than the Glock or any DAO type handgun that has similiar FP safeties. The chances of multiple FP safeties not working would have to be slim to none...correct?

I shoot a 1911 so I have no "dog in this hunt".

 

[Harley Quinn]

auto45

You bring up an interesting arguement about the trigger finger and where it should be when holding a revolver or pistol and are ready to use it.

If someone (lets mention Joe Homeowner) has his firearm out and ready because of a home intruder, is he going to have his finger on the trigger ready for action? Or will he be composed and trained to have it next to the slide or next to the receiver in a safe carry mode?

Training the person to do an unnatural act of keeping the finger off the trigger is something that takes practice.

Try carring a pistol around for awhile with your trigger finger in the forward position. It is uncomfortable and you do not have good control over the weapon. The firearm was ment to have the finger in the guard and on the trigger.

Bottom line I am getting at is, TRAINING is the key.

When carring the 45 1911 the idea was not to have the saftey off but on, and then when you were ready to fire you simply clicked the last saftey off, with your thumb, and started firing.

Two hand hold is one thing, single is another, the 1911 was extended to shoot at the target, you released the saftey and pulled the trigger.

All the training now is you never put your finger on the trigger until you are going to pull the trigger. It was not always like that. DA and the 1911 45 were safe because of the different training methods. Now training are different.

If I need to point a pistol or revolver at someone you can bet my finger will be on the trigger.

HQ

 

[auto45]

Harley Quinn,

Good points.

I have no answers...only questons

Hand somebody a rifle or shotgun and they rarely put their finger on the trigger...in my experience anyway. Hand them a "handgun" and the finger goes to the trigger automatically.

I assume there are more than several instances each day in this country where an LEO "holds" someone at gunpoint. Do they have their finger on or off the trigger I wonder ??

 

[Hotdog1911]

Call me stupid.

There is no use in letting the question/opinion getting personal, swing & maj.

In this world of shooting of ours we have what should be, and then we have reality. Real 'bulletworld' reality. I already stated that safety is the responsibilty of the shooter. Product liability lawyers and knee jerk rules and reactions don't solve anything. I have a concearn and I have an opinion.

Most shooters are alittle more concearned with SA semiautos & holsters than DAs & holsters. Why did so many LE angencies carry revolvers when the 1911 already proved itself? Why did so many of these same agencies embrace the idea of DA auto in a holster? Training is a vital. And the human element is a large part of training.

I receantly bought a brand new, newly designed chainsaw. I already had a 30 year old, still operational, chainsaw. Why a new saw? Because the new design was alittle, (not totally), more foregiving in both design and handeling. Take the idea to the extreme and you will never cut any wood. I can hear it now, "Ban Chainsaws!". On the other side, come over here and crank-up both saws. Tell me you wouldn't prefer one vs. the other. It is impossible to 'Idiot-Proff' a Chainsaw or a pistol. I see no favorable design changes in the XD over a 1911 or a Glock.

Every shooting event I've ever been to said it was a safety violation to holster a cocked SA without the safety latch engaged; with no mention of a grip safety. Along comes the XD and that rule no longer applies? It's a SA or not; It does or it does not have a safety latch. And you're going to load and holster that new design without question? Call me stupid.

 

[snscott]

Without the grip safety depressed, the "SA safety latch is engaged". To disengage the safety latch, press in the grip device.

How did a police officer manage to ND his Glock as he reholstered it if the Glock's "60% cocked striker" is so freaking safe? Duh, he PULLED (or pushed) THE TRIGGER. Now, just maybe, if he had been handling an XD, just maybe, his hand would not have been on the grip safety at the same time and he would not have had the ND. At least with the XD he would have had one additional chance to not accidentally fire the gun.

I think we need to keep in mind that an accidental discharge is different from a negligent discharge. An ND means the person did something stupid. An AD means something truly accidental happened, such as something getting into the trigger guard and unintentionally pressing the trigger. You can have an ND with ANY firearm ever designed because nothing is ever fool proof. You find me any safer design and I'll find you a fool somewhere to defeat it.

With a Glock, you can have an AD as explained above which would NOT result in an AD with the XD if the person pays attention to the grip safety. Tell me how one could have an AD with the XD that woud not also have resulted in an AD from a Glock?

Remember, the XD is classified as "SA", but it employs a DA-style long trigger pull. It does not have the "hair trigger" of a traditional 1911-style SA.

 

[Boondoggie]

snscott - Now, just maybe, if he had been handling an XD, just maybe, his hand would not have been on the grip safety at the same time and he would not have had the ND.

How do you re-holster, by holding the grip with your thumb and forefinger and the Web of your hand in the air and off the grip? Or are you holding onto the grip, in a firm manner? granted, if you have a kydex holster, no 'force' would be required to re-holster. What if you had a leather holster? wouldn't you use the Web of the hand to give it a little 'push'? Just asking.....

snscott - Remember, the XD is classified as "SA", but it employs a DA-style long trigger pull.

I hear what you are saying, but I have shot many a XD and the trigger pull isn't that long, once the trigger safety is disengaged, there is a lot less take up then say a Sig or HK. Because it is a SA, there is also no resistance to that take up and 'stacks' right just before it releases. To make matters worst, so to speak, I know of several XD's with trigger pulls that would shame a custom 1911.

Train with the system you have, make perfect practice with it, and be safe.

 

[snscott]

I reholster my chambered XD by making sure my finger is outside the trigger guard and second, that the web of my hand is lifted off the back of the grip so as to not be in contact with the safety. I perform the final seating with fingers on both sides of the grip (and therefore nowhere near the trigger). It is not that hard, and I am a clumsy oaf.

 

[Ausserordeutlich]

Let's not delude outselves into thinking that a holstering ND would likely be prevented by a grip safety. Grip safeties might be good for something...preventing holstering ND's they won't. Anybody really think the guy who holsters an XD with his finger on the trigger isn't also going to have disengaged the grip safety?

 

[snscott]

Good point, Ausserordeutlich, which takes us back to the difference between a ND and an AD.

 

[rhgunguy]

Maj, I a, going to have to disagree with you on the XD's grip saftey. It is not a manual saftey. It is passive just like the trigger saftey. For me a manual saftey has to remain engaged until you disengage it like the thumb saftey on a 1911.

 

[Hotdog1911]

Ad...nd???. Ad..nd??. Nd?, Ad?.

Accidental Discharge. The term is off topic and irrelevant. If you do not know the difference between AD and ND have it explained to you and make sure you do not handle any firearms until you do.

I'm not advocating learning how to reholster a pistol without putting force on the backstrap. That is a new one. And I'm not about to make excuses for, or in anyway mitiagate a questionalble pistol design. The situation here is that you are handling/holstering a SA auto pistol with no manual safety. Now that is a new one for me. What will be your attitude if you start hearing XD Re-calls and Design Changes?

I'm wrong about alot of things. I'm wrong on more issues than I am right on others. I hope I'm wrong about even questioning the XD. For the good of pistol ownership in general, and for the good of the people at Springfield and their customers individually, I sincerely hope the XD is a safe and reliable piece.

 

[Topthis]

2 years and over 12k rounds later...haven't shot myself, my neighbors, dogs, cats, birds or anything...except the menacing paper targets that attack me two or three times a month. I also own a Glock and I would say that having an accident holstering is more likely...but 4 years and ??? rounds later...haven't shot myself, my neighbors, dogs, cats birds or anything...except the menacing paper targets that attack me once in a while (don't really shoot it much anymore, since I got my XD, KP345 and my newest addition the CZ P-01).
Friend of mine is on the local Police Dept. and was telling me of an incident where an officer was in the locker room and holstered his weapon (Glock) and fired a round, shot his leg (very minor injury from it). Supposedly his finger was not on the trigger and he could not for the life of him, figure out how he managed to fire a round while holstering. Of course this does not mean that all Glocks will do this...or that an XD is not capable of doing this...or ANY loaded weapon for that matter.

 

[Ausserordeutlich]

Let's not delude outselves into thinking that a holstering ND would likely be prevented by a grip safety or a manual thumb safety. Grip safeties and thumb safeties might be good for something...preventing holstering ND's they won't. Anybody really think the guy who holsters an XD with his finger on the trigger isn't also going to have disengaged the grip safety and forgotten to re-engage the thumb safety?

I don't believe that XD's are any more or less safe than Glocks. I don't think that either is any more dangerous, as far as ND's are concerned, than are the habits of the user.

 

[auto45]

The grip safety on a XD would only prevent an AD if you dropped the gun(hands off the gun) and the FP block didn't function...so it's a redundent safety.

Or, you place the XD on a table and pull the trigger without holding the backstrap.
If you need a safety for the above, then they need to ban chainsaw sales also.

Grip safeties can't prevent any holstering ND's, but a manual thumb safety sure can. With it engaged you can pull the trigger all you want when holstering...it won't fire! Not a good idea...but guns with manual safeties are "safer" than guns without...common sense!

 

[Fremmer]

I suppose that every handgun is a ND waiting to happen, regardless of a passive and/or manual safety.

A grip safety doesn't do much. It seems to me that most NDs happen while the gun (and the grip safety) are gripped in the shooter's hand.

A manual safety is nice, but the second you take for granted that it is on, you'll find out that it is off. The opposite can happen when you need to shoot and you think the darn safety is off. I've had that happen while hunting deer (not a very tactical experience, I know). You just can't rely on a manual safety without checking it frequently.

They are all dangerous if something (including a trigger finger) pulls that trigger at the wrong time.

 

[shield20]

AD? ND? But what if...

All this "grip safety on, grip safety off, watch your holster for any obstructions" (more prominent in other threads re:Glock) stuff is all well and good when you are nice and calm at the range, dry firing in your living room, etc. but put even a little stress on you, give you something else to think about, get your hands and your gear a little wet, or just try keeping your eyes on your advisaries when you are reholstering like you are supposed to, and such fine details will go by the wayside. If you can't safely draw and reholster with your eyes on the target and a normal grip on the gun - get a TON more real-world practice, get some different techinques, and/or get a different gun and gear.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Glocks have a manual safety

They are on the trigger, XD has a manual safety it is on the grip.
Training is the trick.

The idea of the Glocks safety is two fold, you dont touch the safety and you dont touch the trigger.

The CHp wanted the particular safe feature of the S&W "the Magazine Release" When the mag is out the gun cannot be fired. As I understand it that is one of the main reasons for them to go with that model.

I was talking to an officer and he explained that it was a feature that they wanted along with some other things that the S&W offered and have had on their Pistols for quite a while, and are proven in battle.

HQ

 

[Ausserordeutlich]

Harley, was the Kalifornia cop insulted when you laughed uncontrollably?

 

[snscott]

Harely - Glocks have a manual safety They are on the trigger, XD has a manual safety it is on the grip.

Actually, the XD has the little (dubious) doohicky embedded in the trigger like the Glock, so by that account, the XD has twice as many safeties as the Glock.

I've never liked the design of the sole safety being ON the trigger. The whole point of a "safety", to me, is to prevent the gun from firing if the trigger is pulled or pressed unintentionally. Making the disengagement of the safety the exact same movement as pulling the trigger just never made a lot of sense to me.

And also -- the whole premise of this thread was "Is the XD more susecptible to ND than other guns due to it being a SA?" I say no.