Is the P220 leaving?

[Handy]

AK103,

I understand that holsters for those guns are available. But that doesn't mean that the Weaver rail design isn't harder on those holsters, as well as everything else they come in contact with.


And while a Sig's dust cover might be close to Weaver width, a 1911's is not.


My point is that the Weaver design is a terrible choice for a universal light mounting system for pistols. It is wide and sharp edged - working in direct opposition to how a handgun is supposed to handle - compact and smooth on the draw.


In encouraging universal mounts, we've ended up with about the worst mount possible. It would be relatively easy to come up with a mounting system that didn't even change the contours of a given gun, let alone make it wider, heavier and sharp.

 

[Rainbow Six]

Handy,

Excellent point... Agreed. I guess since 99% of my pistol "use" is LE on duty type stuff I sort of overlooked the fact that my uses for the most part are surely different than most others here. My bad...

Even I don't carry my light mounted to the pistol off duty. I carry the M3 in a jacket pocket sometimes and other times I carry a handheld light in a pants pocket. So yeah, I see where someone who isn't LE and carries concealed wouldn't have much use for a rail/weapon light except maybe when investigating things that go bump in the night at home.

I'm also with you in that I believe the manufacturers could have done MUCH better as far as designing mounts. However, I'd prefer they all went with a universal, even if it's the weaver, than to have each manufacturer get creative and make many different proprietary mounts which would also limit us to buying proprietary lights for the most part to work with the mounts. The weaver ain't perfect but it beats having a different mount for each manufacturer in my opinion.

 

[STAGE 2]

Gunowners are starting to sound like golfers...my clubs don't fit me...the heads are too small...the angle is not right, etc. Quit whinning and concentrate on shot placement, breathing, stance, etc.

I'm not whining, I don't golf, and shot placement et al, has nothing to do with the conversation. I AM hacked off because some bean counter at SIG decided that they could make an extra buck by ditching what most consider to be one of the newer classical pistol designs just to get into the whole tacticool market.

Like everyone's grandad used to say, If it ain't broke... well, you get the idea.

 

[rellascout]

I agree with you but it is also an economy of scale issue. Instead of making 2 frames, rail and non-rail they make just one. This allows them to use a single line instead of two.

This is the same menatilty that caused them to kill the P225 and P228. All milled slides no more stamped slides. A single production method is cheaper.

 

[Handy]

The 228, 245 and 220 with stamped slides are all still in production.

 

[Jamie Young]

All ya gotta do is pick up the phone and call Sig to confirm these questions.

Sig has stopped production of a few of their handguns because they have so many newer models on the market. The tooling is still there and they can always make new Sig 228 or Sig 220 if some LEO or Government contract comes through.

I do know for a fact that the Sig 228 is NOT in production since it is considered an older model. Sig is pushing the 229 on LEO if they want the 228.

CDNN is there for anyone that wants a used Sig 228 or 220.

 

[Handy]

The 228 is still the M11 service pistol. I'm not saying they are easy to get right now for consumers, but they didn't discontinue it altogether, or even remove it from the website. And it was their limited gun of the month in November.

Anyway, the 245 and 220R also both continue to use stamped slides. If you look at the 220R page you can see that it has the internal extractor of the stamped guns.

http://www.sigarms.com/products/classicfullsize-models.asp?product_id=238#

 

[stephen426]

I think it is stupid for them to discontinue the 220 because it lacks rails. I don't think it would cost that much more for them to offer both models. The problem may be that their marketing department sees inventory building up for non-railed guns while the railed guns are flying off the shelf. If there is sufficient demand (meaning people are actually buying them rather than whining that they aren't available and contacting Sig to request them) I'm sure Sig will bring them back. Heck, Coca-Cola brought back the Coca-Cola Classic after they spent millions on the new Coke. Think about how much wasted reserach and development, marketing, and marketing research went down the toilet on that one.

While it is important to continuously improve, a company should really determine whether or not something is broken before fixing it.

By the way, who cares if the P245 get discontinued. I say good riddence. I couldn't shoot mine worth a crap even though I am pretty darn good with my P229. maybe we just weren't compatible. I can tell you my Les Baer TR Special shoots a whole lot better though and my hard chrome finish won't rust like the P245 did!

 

[Jamie Young]

The 228 is still the M11 service pistol. I'm not saying they are easy to get right now for consumers,

They ARE REAL hard to get. I want another one, but CDNN says they only get a few in at a time. Since it's a military service pistol, a ton of them were sent over to Iraq and it wouldn't surprise me if the military is buyinig up the used Sig 228s. I know a ton of people in the USAF that didn't carry a gun until recently. The M11 is what they are issued.

but they didn't discontinue it altogether, or even remove it from the website.

I think it would be technically accurate to say they aren't "obsolete" but they are not in production.

I haven't heard of any military or LEO contracts picking up the Sig 228 in a long time. The Department of Homeland Insecurity has the Sig 239, 226 and 229 (DAK I believe).

I wish the Sig 229 took 228 mags.

 

[Handy]

It does. The 9mm 229 takes 228 mags.

 

[rellascout]

The 228 is still the M11 service pistol. I'm not saying they are easy to get right now for consumers, but they didn't discontinue it altogether, or even remove it from the website. And it was their limited gun of the month in November.

Anyway, the 245 and 220R also both continue to use stamped slides. If you look at the 220R page you can see that it has the internal extractor of the stamped guns.

http://www.sigarms.com/products/clas...roduct_id=238#

Handy you are wrong. Call Sig. The P228 and P225 are done as regular production models. They still own the tooling and they can always make new Sig 228 or Sig 225 with stamped slides if some LEO or Government contract comes through but they are not part of theor regular production anymore.

The GOTM stuff you are refencing is using older parts already in inventory.

 

[Jamie Young]

Verified facts from Sig rep:

"The Sig 220 IS being discontinued and the Sig 220R is taking it's place."

+1 for Handy- The Sig 229 (I didn't know this) 9mm mags DO work in the 228 (now I'm gonna buy a 229 and it's Handy's fault)

"The Sig 228 is NOT in production in the United States and no longer being imported. Some are being made overseas under military/police contracts but in small quantities."


Straight from the Sigarms sales reps mouth.

 

[Handy]

Okay. What's a P25?


We got into this about the stamped slides. I've never seen a picture of a milled .45 Sig slide. They're making them now? Every single 220ST, 245, 220R, etc I've ever seen has an internal extractor that goes with the breechblock and stamped slide.

 

[AK103K]

The P245 is also done. My dealer tried to order one for me a couple of weeks ago and was told so by SIG. They also didnt have any to ship. Whats out there is whats available.

 

[rellascout]

Typo on P225 and you know it.

Again call Sig. They will tell you they are moving to milled stainless away from carbon stamping.

 

[Handy]

Relax. I didn't know if you were refering to a 225 or 245. They both have 25 in them.


That's interesting about all the stamped slides going away. As I said, I've never seen a replacement for the .45 slides in a milled version, so I didn't understand how they were doing it. Usually they get the new versions out before they phase out the old.


Thanks for the current information and correction. It was the first I had heard of a total retirement of the sheet metal.

 

[GunsnRovers]

On the European web page the P225 and P228 are still shown and from some European posters on SigForum, they are still available.

The P220, however, only shows the rail version.

 

[Handy]

Rellascout,

Since I see you also use Sigforum, take a look at all those new models they have. All the 220 based guns look stamped, too.

What do you think is going on?

 

[rellascout]

I really don't know. My guess is that they are cutting costs. As you and I have discussed before people want what they want for as little as they can pay for it. Sig has to find ways to meet that demand and still eek out a profit.

I think Sig is looking at the market and saying that they can manufacturer all the slides from the same hunks of stainless steel. I have heard stories of pallets and pallets of the pre-milled slides in the factory. They are the same piece of steel for the P229, P226 and soon to be P220.

Production becomes more streamlined. Your factory inventory is easier to manage with less individual gun specific materials.

I am really not sure. I have seen these types of threads peppered all over the Sig forum.

Both these slides are milled. Look at the strange hole in the slide versus this:

 

[treeprof]

For some reason, SIG kept the internal extractor when they moved to the milled stainless slides on the 220ST. There were a few complaints about a higher frequency of extractor breakage and other issue in the milled stainless slides vs. the old stamped ones not long after the 220ST came out, but I think those were resolved by SIG. I've had no problem w/my 220ST, tho it is an early 2005 gun. I'm going to be trading (not my 220ST) this week on a new 220R that arrived at a local shop about a week ago, and it has a blackened milled stainless slide on the alloy frame. All the the new 2006 variants do, as well. Stamped 220's are likely limited to dealer and distributor stock.