It all matters, but is very much the shooter. I used to shoot handguns quite a bit, and thought I was a pretty competent shooter. I wondered if those top guys could really be that much better than me. In the fullness of time, I got to see some of those top guys shoot. Yes, they really were that much better than me;(
Is it the gun and load or the shooter ?
- Thread starter Metal god
- Start date
No.
As I said, above average hand strength (probably from working hard to attain it) plus good technique, plus a lot of practice is going to provide really good muzzle control.
Of course that's not the entire story in terms of being competitive, but it does speak to the OP's question which was about muzzle rise and control.
I didn't say anything about a "tremendous physique", my comments were exclusively focused on hand strength/forearm muscles.
Based on the video I've seen of him cranking off DA rounds one-handed at ridiculous speed and still hitting the target, I'd wager that his hand strength was well above average.
Unfortunately, I can't find even a single picture of him where he's not wearing a long-sleeved shirt that would allow us to compare the musculature of his forearms to that of modern day top pistoleros.
jetinteriorguy
New member
Give me a full sized pistol and if I’m in good shape practice wise I usually can unload any of my pistols into a four inch cluster as fast as I can pull the trigger at 7-10 yds. But, make it a small size CC pistol and my results are more similar to yours. I think the difference is the distance from the grip to the trigger changes the geometry for my hand size causing me to consistently shoot low and left. Group size remains consistent because I have good grip strength due to the type of work I do. My solution has been to put a small red dot sight on my Hellcat so I can center my group without changing my natural trigger grip and even though there is a significant learning curve getting used to the sight it’s working quite well. So in the end a change in equipment and lots of practice has helped me. I reload and have a lot of components on hand so it’s easy for me to shoot a couple hundred rounds a week to relearn using the red dot and after a month of this it’s becoming quite natural.
Sorry guys this thread was the wrong one for my last couple posts . see here if you care
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6943582#post6943582
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6943582#post6943582
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First, it is grip strength. It has never been more apparent to me than in the past year or so. I was having trouble shooting both fast, and accurate. And I was getting more muzzle flip. I could still shoot small groups, but I needed split times in the 0.4 range or more. More than twice what I was a few years ago. That led me down the path of trying to figure it out and when I measured my grip strength, it was around 65 pounds. About 40 pounds less that it was. Well, I had severe spinal stenosis and my spinal column was pinched off by about 40%. The pain came as I was trying to manage my pistol shooting. Well, I had surgery and I am recovering. But I ended up with a lot of dead nerves and some necrosis. Having a high pain threshold is not good.
Anyway, I had always known about grip strength and I have several exercises to improve it. The average male peaks at about 100 ft-lbs in the mid 20s and falls off as age takes its toll. Women are about 30 pounds below a male. We did a survey of top level GMs (lots of things actually) grip strength. All were over 100, most were in the 110 to 120 ft-lbs range. They are gripping their pistols with 80 to 100 ft-lbs. When you grip, max strength, it slows down the speed of the trigger finger, and imparts movement to the rest of the hand (which drives the gun off target). With PT and exercise, I am again improving my grip strength, and the target shows it, as well as the timer.
The trick is to grip the pistol as hard as you can, while still maintaining the flexibility of the trigger finger.
Second, most top GMs are tuned in to their pistols. Their shoulders and elbows are not locked, but they absorb some recoil. Elbows out, so that the gun recoils in only one plane. They also push into the recoil some. This is muscle memory, training, tuning, and comes from 10s of thousands of rounds.
Third, tuned guns and ammo helps. Some powder/bullet combinations feel softer than others, even with the same power factor. You will find most top level competitors are using fast powders with heavy bullets for their competition load. Getting the explosion over with faster helps you recover sooner and give you an advantage from the inertia perspective.
I take a Hand Dynamometer to classes and measure people's grip strength. It helps me know how fast I can push them and it also helps me give them feedback on what they need to focus on, and grip strength improvement. I have a squeeze ball in my vehicle. It gets 10 pumps everytime I get in, both hands. I have a Gyroball for flexibility and the thumbs and a forearm trainer.
And yes, I have spoken about this with Jerry, and yes, Jerry has a mean handshake. Shooting a pistol is just alinging the sights and causing it to fire without messing up the sight picture. Anyone can do that. But to be fast, you have to have the grip strength. This is also why women, even with massive effort and practice, will never be faster than a male given the same amount of effort. They have a natural 30 pound deficit that can not be overcome.
Anyway, I had always known about grip strength and I have several exercises to improve it. The average male peaks at about 100 ft-lbs in the mid 20s and falls off as age takes its toll. Women are about 30 pounds below a male. We did a survey of top level GMs (lots of things actually) grip strength. All were over 100, most were in the 110 to 120 ft-lbs range. They are gripping their pistols with 80 to 100 ft-lbs. When you grip, max strength, it slows down the speed of the trigger finger, and imparts movement to the rest of the hand (which drives the gun off target). With PT and exercise, I am again improving my grip strength, and the target shows it, as well as the timer.
The trick is to grip the pistol as hard as you can, while still maintaining the flexibility of the trigger finger.
Second, most top GMs are tuned in to their pistols. Their shoulders and elbows are not locked, but they absorb some recoil. Elbows out, so that the gun recoils in only one plane. They also push into the recoil some. This is muscle memory, training, tuning, and comes from 10s of thousands of rounds.
Third, tuned guns and ammo helps. Some powder/bullet combinations feel softer than others, even with the same power factor. You will find most top level competitors are using fast powders with heavy bullets for their competition load. Getting the explosion over with faster helps you recover sooner and give you an advantage from the inertia perspective.
I take a Hand Dynamometer to classes and measure people's grip strength. It helps me know how fast I can push them and it also helps me give them feedback on what they need to focus on, and grip strength improvement. I have a squeeze ball in my vehicle. It gets 10 pumps everytime I get in, both hands. I have a Gyroball for flexibility and the thumbs and a forearm trainer.
And yes, I have spoken about this with Jerry, and yes, Jerry has a mean handshake. Shooting a pistol is just alinging the sights and causing it to fire without messing up the sight picture. Anyone can do that. But to be fast, you have to have the grip strength. This is also why women, even with massive effort and practice, will never be faster than a male given the same amount of effort. They have a natural 30 pound deficit that can not be overcome.
Grip strength sounds reasonable and when I give an honest look at what mine “may” be . I say may because it has never been measured. I’m sure with age and my experience in my job , meaning I don’t do “all” the heavy lifting like I used to . I do more pointing of what needs to be done now . So although strong I’m sure it’s not what it used to be even 5 years ago .
Thanks for that post mark , I’ll start working on my grip strength outside of work moving forward .
Thanks for that post mark , I’ll start working on my grip strength outside of work moving forward .
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Equipment is ALWAYS a substantial part of the ability to use it.
Without equipment, you can't play the game at all. With the right equipment you can, and can compete. THEN skill and ability of the shooter takes over, and when the equipment is essentially matched across the board, the ability of the user becomes the deciding factor.
Look at the IROC race, where all the cars are as close to identical as we can make them. Driver skill is what wins, not the equipment in that event.
And, you should. If a .22 Target pistol isn't substantially more accurate than an off the shelf 9mm, there's something drastically WRONG with it, and it need to go back to the maker!!
stinkeypete
New member
I used to shoot NRA Bullseye. Never good enough to win at the club level, but good enough to sometimes take second. I was well known for my excellent rapid fire scores in the rimfire portion.
I had a Baikal IZH-35M with an 1" Ultradot on top and a custom trigger job. That is a huge, heavy, long .22 pistol!
Every time I sat at the computer, I was squeezing handballs to improve my grip strength for centerfire pistol
The AMU has publications on proper stance. I followed that. When my muzzle dropped, it was right back on target.
More than a few friends wondered how I managed such blistering scores in the rapid fire when my scores were lower in the slow fire sections. Simple.. the rapid fire targets are bigger. I let my pals try my gun.
"Dang. This thing is like cheating."
Light load, heavy gun, low bore axis, excellent trigger.
Let 'er rip.
I had a Baikal IZH-35M with an 1" Ultradot on top and a custom trigger job. That is a huge, heavy, long .22 pistol!
Every time I sat at the computer, I was squeezing handballs to improve my grip strength for centerfire pistol
The AMU has publications on proper stance. I followed that. When my muzzle dropped, it was right back on target.
More than a few friends wondered how I managed such blistering scores in the rapid fire when my scores were lower in the slow fire sections. Simple.. the rapid fire targets are bigger. I let my pals try my gun.
"Dang. This thing is like cheating."
Light load, heavy gun, low bore axis, excellent trigger.
Let 'er rip.
jetinteriorguy
New member
Very well put.
So I bought a grip strength tester off Amazon. Tried it but it likely isn’t calibrated correctly. I’ve always known I have a strong grip but this thing says my grip is 158lbs . It has a chart and for my age , 110lbs would be considered strong . I need to figure out a way to check if this tester is accurate.
I will add I don’t even come close to gripping my gun that tight . So I grabbed one of my guns and did some simulated dry fires paying close attention to how hard I’m gripping the gun . I then tried to duplicate that grip/feel on the tester . That resulted in readings between 75 & 80lbs . That’s interesting because it feel’s pretty firm but next time I shoot I’ll grip it tighter .
I will add I don’t even come close to gripping my gun that tight . So I grabbed one of my guns and did some simulated dry fires paying close attention to how hard I’m gripping the gun . I then tried to duplicate that grip/feel on the tester . That resulted in readings between 75 & 80lbs . That’s interesting because it feel’s pretty firm but next time I shoot I’ll grip it tighter .
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I think grip and forearm strength are certainly beneficial to accurate shooting, especially at speed. That said, you seem to be describing some pretty notable vision related challenges. For myself I can do my grip exercises every night, dry fire multiple times a week, but if I can’t see my sights and a consistent point on the target to aim at, then the benefits of that will be limited. Like you I see a front sight much clearer without my glasses. However, seeing as being able to identify my target and assess whether it’s a threat (from a defensive standpoint) is important, I keep the glasses on and again, it’s also easier to find a consistent point on the target with them. If you can’t keep a consistent point of aim then your group sizes will suffer.
Have you talked with your optometrist or ophthalmologist about that challenge? Sometimes you can tweak a prescription, or even come up with a version that works at the range if this is purely recreational for you.
Have you talked with your optometrist or ophthalmologist about that challenge? Sometimes you can tweak a prescription, or even come up with a version that works at the range if this is purely recreational for you.
jetinteriorguy
New member
The key is gripping tight enough to maintain control on follow up shots but not so tight it affects your trigger pull. The biggest problem with that is this relationship will vary from gun to gun and if you shoot many different pistols in one session it usually takes a few rounds to get on track. For me I’ve found if I do a lot of shooting with multiple pistols it’s not a big deal, but I always save my carry pistol to shoot last, thinking this muscle memory will stick with me better when needed. At least, this is my personal experience, although I do have two exceptions, my CZ75 SA and my GP100, it seems I always just shoot them pretty good anytime any place.
GE-Minigun
New member
I think it was Rob Leatham, no longer recall for sure, but one of the top shooters, in an interview somewhere around two decades ago was asked, "how much do you shoot in practice in a year?"
He replied, "about 80,000..."
"80,000 rounds?"
"No, 80,000 DOLLARS of ammo"
When you practice like that, you get and stay good.
This right here...I used to average 10 to 12k per year in skeet and 5 stand and the scores showed it. Had rotator cuff surgery couple years back that knocked me out of shooting anything for 6 months, when I got back my scores had dropped an average of 10 birds. Shooting is a perishable skill and 97% or higher of shooters do not shoot enough to get an above average level.
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Hardly “bunny fart” loads.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W7W-5QE3jzw&t=127s&pp=ygUYSmVycnkgbWljdWxlayAuNDQgbWFnbnVt
Six rounds. 1 second. Full house .44 Magnum.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k_i_8Elcdzc
Five rounds of .44 Magnum in an L Frame.
That gun doesn’t move. It’s like it’s in a Vice. Having met Jerry several times, his hands are huge. Literally wrapped his hand around my dainty little hand when we shook hands.
He is an anomaly.
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What gun doesn't move? I must be watching a different video.
Not sure what video you all are talking about but my original video is here see 12:00min in for the 3 shots with close to zero recoil .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ChSazF41q-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ChSazF41q-s