Interesting Ron Paul Factoid

STAGE 2

New member
Factoid

NOUN: 1. A piece of unverified or inaccurate information that is presented in the press as factual, often as part of a publicity effort, and that is then accepted as true because of frequent repetition.

Not one Ron Paul critic on this thread can name a single congress person with a better voting record on spending than RP.

And we don't have to. Paul is the one making his campaign about how he is the ONLY candidate who follows the constitution and believes in limited government.

Well, if this is in fact true, then I'd say this vote runs pretty much counter to Paul's assertions. Pork in of itself runs afoul of the principles of limited government. And to sit there an say that the CIA needs to be disbanded at a time where intelligence has never been important while allocating funds to the shrimp industry puts his character, and more importantly intelligence seriously into question.


All they know how to do is attack.

Why is asking a valid question an attack? Why should Paul be above any inquisition that any other presidential candidate goes through.


They never list any positive points about their canidate.

Because we aren't talking about any other candidate, we are talking about Ron Paul.


Whomever that may be since they never say.

As of right now Fred Thompson with the fervent hope that either Duncan Hunter or Huckabee can pull away from the back of the pack.


And now that we've gotten that out of the way, here's a problem I have. You, and other "Paulites" don't ever really address the argument at issue. Rather you bring up everything else (exactly like in your post). You're not willing to concede ANYTHING.

I've got news for you, Paul is human. Meaning that he'll have made some mistakes. Because this is the case doesn't invalidate him as a candidate. The credibility of you folks would go alot longer if you conceded some of Pauls flaws rather than pretending they aren't there.
 

Danzig

New member
Stage 2..I don't think that I've ever agreed with you one anything..but your last post earns a +1 from me.

I am very much a supporter of Dr. Paul but I agree that nobody is above scrutiny. Ron Paul isn't perfect..but I believe him to be better than the rest..and not the "lesser of two evils".
 

ZeroJunk

New member
Seems at this point in time any multi-term Republican claiming to be the champion of fiscal responsibility would have to be considered incompetent since they obviously have not done it.

Ron Paul has ZERO chance of becoming president.We are most likely going to get Hillary.Energy would be better spent working for somebody who can beat her,if her stated policies are disagreeable to you.
 

Danzig

New member
ZeroJunk, you statement would be true if we believed that any of the other candidates would actually be an improvement over Hillary Clinton. I think that the last few decades have proven that as far as the main stream candidates go..there is not functional difference. Either way we will get bigger, more powerful, and more intrusive government. The only candidate who promises to try and change that is Ron Paul. He has a history of TRYING to reign in government..that in and of itself sets him far apart from any of the so called "electable" candidates.
 

ZeroJunk

New member
I made no statement as to whether I thought any other candidate was better or not,just that without some huge blunder she is likely to win.Ron Paul cannot win.
 

Pat H

Moderator
Thomas Jefferson believed that the lousiana purchase was unconstitutional, and he helped write it. None the less he was at least pragmatic enough to realise that sometimes reality is more important than theory.
That was a great deal more complex than mere Constitutionality. That's beyond the scope of this thread, but perhaps someone will start a thread about that.
 

Danzig

New member
I understand ZeroJunk. I believe that many here would rather vote their conscience than vote for a candidate who they are convinced will bring further ruin to our nation.

Few people here believe that the election of Hillary Clinton to the White House would be a good thing for our nation. The thing is...many of us do not think that ANY of the other candidates will be any better than her with the exception of Ron Paul.

In our viewpoint, not voting, a vote for NOTA (non of the above), or a vote for a longshot candidate is better than voting for someone who we believe will CONTRIBUTE to the problems our nation is facing.
 

ZeroJunk

New member
My logic right or wrong is that you have Giuliani,Romney,Thompson,perhaps Gingrich with some chance.McCain seems to have fizzled and Newt is a long shot.Thompson and Gingrich both kill Paul in the polls who is only at 2% if they even list him at all,and they aren't technically running.I have always liked Thompson,and I like Gingrich for that matter,but that is beside the point.Point is,pick one of the guys that can win,lesser of evils if you will,that you can live with and work for them.Effort for Ron Paul may be valiant,but wasted.
 

nate45

New member
As of right now Fred Thompson

Fred Thompson said he was tough on immigration and would secure or borders I guess he means like this:

Fred Thompson voted to grant amnesty to nearly one million illegal aliens from Nicaragua and Cuba in 1997.


Sen. Thompson voted to grant legal status to Nicaraguans and Cubans who had lived in the United States illegally since 1995, along with their spouses and minor unmarried children. The overall ten year impact of this legislation will be the addition of some 967,000 people to U.S. population.

Guess we should now just discount everything Thompson says about being tough on illegal immigration.

Even though Thompson actually does have a good record on immigration see how I can single out one instance a try to totally discredit his immigration message.

It's a lame tactic to try among the informed Stage 2.

It's like the lie of misdirection that asserting that because Paul did his job as congressional representative for his district that it somehow invalidates his whole campaign message.

Paul is the one making his campaign about how he is the ONLY candidate who follows the constitution and believes in limited government.

No he is saying he has the best voting record on those two issues of any of the candidates.

Here it is if anyone would like to see it for themselves.

http://activote.ontheissues.org/AVA/House/Ron_Paul.htm

You can also see every other member of congresses record on that site.
 

Pat H

Moderator
Point is,pick one of the guys that can win,lesser of evils if you will,that you can live with and work for them
Without putting words into his mouth, I think that Danzig was attempting to say, and what I definitely would say, is that no other Republican candidate would be any better than Hillary Clinton.

I don't understand the statements about Newt Gingrich or Fred Thompson; they're more than just two "lesser of two evils".

There is one, just one, decent, honest candidate in this race today. If he wasn't in the campaign, I wouldn't vote at all. It's been years since I was active in a political campaign, and this may just be the last.
 

9mmHP

New member
No Congressman is compelled to put forth any earmark. The member I worked for in the last (109th) Congress would only ask for defense items related to our district for a total of $3 million. $400 Million is a lot of pork.
 

ZeroJunk

New member
There is a vast difference between the philosophy of Newt or Fred and Hillary.To say that one is no better than the other is nonsense.Which one a voter thinks is better will vary a great deal depending on what the individual wants the government to do for them.But,to say they are the same is unreasoned.

In the end,what will you accomplish if you make some protest vote for Ron Paul.Nothing.
 

STAGE 2

New member
Fred Thompson said he was tough on immigration and would secure or borders I guess he means like this:

Fred Thompson voted to grant amnesty to nearly one million illegal aliens from Nicaragua and Cuba in 1997.


Sen. Thompson voted to grant legal status to Nicaraguans and Cubans who had lived in the United States illegally since 1995, along with their spouses and minor unmarried children. The overall ten year impact of this legislation will be the addition of some 967,000 people to U.S. population.

Guess we should now just discount everything Thompson says about being tough on illegal immigration.

Even though Thompson actually does have a good record on immigration see how I can single out one instance a try to totally discredit his immigration message.

It's a lame tactic to try among the informed Stage 2.

It's like the lie of misdirection that asserting that because Paul did his job as congressional representative for his district that it somehow invalidates his whole campaign message.

Hold on there sonny. Nowhere did I say anything about Thompsons position on the issues. But I do congratulate you for proving my point, namely this...

You, and other "Paulites" don't ever really address the argument at issue. Rather you bring up everything else (exactly like in your post). You're not willing to concede ANYTHING.

Once again you played true to form and picked another candidate to bash on as if somehow this rebuts any criticism of Ron Paul.

Whether Thompson sucks on immigration has nothing to do with whether Paul is getting pork for his district. No matter how much you try and cloud the issue it won't change this.

So with all that said, explain to me how the man who encourages people to not pay their income tax as its beyond the purview of the government can in the same instance mandate by vote that the federal government should subsidize shrimp.

No rhetoric, just the facts ma'am
 

nate45

New member
So with all that said, explain to me how the man who encourages people to not pay their income tax as its beyond the purview of the government can in the same instance mandate by vote that the federal government should subsidize shrimp.

He does not encourage people not to pay taxes and you can't show me one qoute where he does.

He did not vote to subsidize shrimp, the pool of budget money was already in place he simply secured funds for his district.

Which is simply doing his job as congressional rep. and apparently in your mind somehow invalidates his whole ideology.

If they had a vote in congress to eliminate earmarks RP would vote for it.

Just face it Stage2 whats really at issue here is that you are in favor of BIG Government and centralized state control.
 

Pat H

Moderator
Just face it Stage2 whats really at issue here is that you are in favor of BIG Government and centralized state control.
That's really what's at issue between those of us that favor a candidate that's as close to a total advocate for freedom that's run for president in the last 80 years, and all the rest.

Most libertarians, not the Libertarian Party any longer sadly, favor freedom. We look at voluntary cooperation, which exists in great abundance already, and see that it offers freedom in just about every aspect of our lives.

What is in opposition are those that love controlling some aspect of the lives of others; whether through the New Deal, the War on Communism, the War on (some) Drugs, and now the War on Terrorism and American freedoms. These kinds of people have always been with us and probably always will be. We freedom advocates must resist them as we always have, as time passes, we'll prevail, and they'll be the disheveled, lonely man haranguing people on the street cormer.
 

444marlin

New member
Straight from the horses mouth.

Earmark Victory May Be A Hollow One

by Ron Paul

June 18, 2007

Last week's big battle on the House floor over earmarks in the annual appropriations bills was won by Republicans, who succeeded in getting the Democratic leadership to agree to clearly identify each earmark in the future. While this is certainly a victory for more transparency and openness in the spending process, and as such should be applauded, I am concerned that this may not necessarily be a victory for those of us who want a smaller federal government.

Though much attention is focused on the notorious abuses of earmarking, and there are plenty of examples, in fact even if all earmarks were eliminated we would not necessary save a single penny in the federal budget. Because earmarks are funded from spending levels that have been determined before a single earmark is agreed to, with or without earmarks the spending levels remain the same. Eliminating earmarks designated by Members of Congress would simply transfer the funding decision process to federal bureaucrats rather then elected representatives. In an already flawed system, earmarks can at least allow residents of Congressional districts to have a greater role in allocating federal funds - their tax dollars - than if the money is allocated behind locked doors by bureaucrats. So we can be critical of the abuses in the current system but we shouldn't lose sight of how some reforms may not actually make the system much better.

The real problem, and one that was unfortunately not addressed in last week's earmark dispute, is the size of the federal government and the amount of money we are spending in these appropriations bills. Even cutting a few thousand or even a million dollars from a multi-hundred billion dollar appropriation bill will not really shrink the size of government.

So there is a danger that small-government conservatives will look at this small victory for transparency and forget the much larger and more difficult battle of returning the United States government to spending levels more in line with its constitutional functions. Without taking a serious look at the actual total spending in these appropriations bills, we will miss the real threat to our economic security. Failed government agencies like FEMA will still get tens of billions of dollars to mismanage when the next disaster strikes. Corrupt foreign governments will still be lavishly funded with dollars taken from working Americans to prop up their regimes. The United
Nations will still receive its generous annual tribute taken from the American taxpayer. Americans will still be forced to pay for elaborate military bases to protect borders overseas while our own borders remain porous and unguarded. These are the real issues we must address when we look at reforming our yearly spending extravaganza called the appropriations season.

So we need to focus on the longer term and more difficult task of reducing the total size of the federal budget and the federal government and to return government to its constitutional functions. We should not confuse this welcome victory for transparency in the earmarking process with a victory in our long-term goal of this reduction in government taxing and spending.

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=836
 

ZeroJunk

New member
Interesting and enlightening.A problem with these forums and news coverage in general is that all decisions that a politian makes are distilled down to a one line talking point to make it seem the worst or the best decision depending on whether you are for or against that candidate.It's never that simple.

The problem Ron Paul and his supporters have is that there is a LARGE part of the electorate that want this pork.A man that pays no taxes vote counts just as much as one who does.

I like Ron Paul OK,but he will never be elected.
 

Huchahucha

New member
What's the big deal? Here is the situation as I understand it:

Ron Paul is against the federal income tax.
When Congress decides they have an abundance of tax payer money to spend, Ron Paul figures out a percentage that was wrongly taken from his constituents, then earmarks it into legislation that he is going to vote against. If the legislation passes anyway, great! The people of Texas get some of their money back in the form of some project. In the meantime, Ron Paul gladly compiles a list of his earmarks so anybody that wants to see it can.

WOW!!! That is scandalous.
 
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