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Informing LEO's about your CHL: a helpful courtesy?
- Thread starter raftman
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Conn. Trooper
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Don't know about other states. Here it's illegal to carry a firearm in plain view (not specifically by statute, it falls under Breach of Peace). So, therefore, since it's not commonplace around here, I don't have an answer for you how other states handle it.
I am simply stating that cops don't know what is going on in a car when they approach. We can guess, think, and assume, but we don't know. I approach a car and the driver says he is carrying a gun, I get his permit, tell him not to put his hands anywhere I can not see them and go about my business. If the permit is still valid (you would be amazed how many are revoked or whatever and have not been turned in) they are on their way. The horror stories about getting yanked out of the car and tossed on the ground are, few and far between and IMO a urban legend. But, I am sure someone will toss in a "I was there" story or a "this guy at the gun shop told me it happened to him" story.
I am simply stating that cops don't know what is going on in a car when they approach. We can guess, think, and assume, but we don't know. I approach a car and the driver says he is carrying a gun, I get his permit, tell him not to put his hands anywhere I can not see them and go about my business. If the permit is still valid (you would be amazed how many are revoked or whatever and have not been turned in) they are on their way. The horror stories about getting yanked out of the car and tossed on the ground are, few and far between and IMO a urban legend. But, I am sure someone will toss in a "I was there" story or a "this guy at the gun shop told me it happened to him" story.
Doublestack
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ConnTrooper wrote: I don't know that someone is legal when I walk up to the car. You don't know a lot of things when you stop a car and approach. You may know you are legal, but I don't. Thats the problem.
It is a problem that you are trained to be aware of and take necessary precautions. From your point of view, everyone is considered illegal until proven otherwise. From the point of view of a legal CCW person like myself who has always been a law abiding person, I am legal, period. While I definately understand your concerns, and also understand that you must be at all times in control of a traffic stop, why in the wide world of sports would I volunteer information that is not asked for, nor relevent?
I know I am not a criminal, and that I am carrying legally. I really don't think I need to advertise that fact to you, as I am absolutely no threat to you. If you ask me if there is a weapon in the vehicle, or ask me to step out of the car, I would waste no time informing you that I am armed. I just do not see a problem with that.
I guess I don't like the idea of immediately having to prove I am a good guy just because I have a tail light out. It is you who is pulling me over. Tell me what you need from me, and I will provide it. I just hate the fact that I would be seen and treated as a criminal until I have proven otherwise. I suppose I would think differently if I were a LEO.
I have worked closely with our capital city's police department throughout my career as a firefighter, and can say without reservation, that I would not do your job for a million a year. Having said that, I am a law abiding free man, and I place myself below no other man, ever. That would include giving out all kinds of personal information that is not required just to "prove" that I am a nice guy.
I had to come back and edit to add that it is more a matter of principle and not discourtesy to me. There are states that mandate that the honest law abiding citizens who own guns must register them. There are laws everywhere stating that honest law abiding legally armed people cannot enter certain buildings like a Post Office when carrying. There are about 20,000 more laws regarding CCW and firearms in general. Only the law abiding folks follow them. Criminals, by definition, do not. If a criminal is illegally carrying a firearm or has one in his possession, he or she will definately not inform the officer who stopped them. The law abiding citizen will.
As a law abiding person, I am not a threat, and do not see why I should divulge information that is not in any way pertinant to the situation at hand. Why would a police officer want to know if a law abiding person was carrying legally? It is the criminal that is of concern to the officer.
I think of it like all the gun laws that the law abiding follow, but all the criminals do not. Only a law abiding citizen would offer CCW information, and they pose no threat to an officer. If it is of paramount importance that the officer know this information, then it should be a standard procedure for the officer to say, "License, registration, proof of insurance, and are you armed/are there weapons in the vehicle?" Of course only the legally armed people would answer to the affirmative, and to what end? To be delayed even further and be subjected to checks to see if they are lying. No thanks.
No disrespect intended.
WG840
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I am not required to inform, but I feel it is respectful to inform the LEO. Not all LEO's that stop you are seasoned pro's, some are a little green and the discovery of your weapon on their own could possibly make the situation go a direction I don't want to be in.
Not worth concealing that info from Johnny Law.
IMO
Not worth concealing that info from Johnny Law.
IMO
In SC, we are required to inform that we have a permit and present it with our DL. I don't have a problem with that. I've been stopped several times since getting my CWP, mostly at roadblocks. I've always hand over my permit and the officer has always looked at it, handed it back and said, "are you carrying now?"
Sometimes the answer was, "no". On the occasions that the answer was "yes", the officer has asked me where it was and then said that I shouldn't reach for it or something to that effect.
I firmly believe that it has gotten me out of a couple of tickets since the officer visibly relaxed and became more friendly after I had told them. Only once did I have a cop act like a jerk about it. It was the second time through a roadblock (I forgot something and had to go back and an alternate route would have taken me miles out of the way.)
I said "yes" after being asked if I was carrying and he barked that I had to tell him that when handing over my permit. There is no such requirement under SC law but I didn't want to get into a urinating contest over it when he already had an attitude. He was about to do something next when another officer at the roadblock told him to let me go since he had checked me the first time through. He handed back my lic. and waved me through.
I've never been asked to get out of the car or anything like that and I'm not sure how I would react but I'm usually very cooperative and err on the side of caution. If the cop has an attitude, I suddenly stop being cooperative and start asserting my rights. I don't think I would ever consent to a search, not because I have anything to hide, but because I have a 4th amendment right.
As for overzealous cops yanking people out of cars... It's most certainly NOT an urban legend. There was a SC state trooper a few years ago who yanked an elderly woman out THROUGH THE WINDOW because she wouldn't exit the vehicle when told to by the officer. She very clearly informed the officer that she had to take off her seat belt. He grabbed her hand before she could reach for it and sprayed her with pepper spray. Then he yanked her out of the car and slammed her down on the white line. It was all caught on his dash-cam and he was fired, fined and may have even gone to jail for a short time over it.
Sometimes the answer was, "no". On the occasions that the answer was "yes", the officer has asked me where it was and then said that I shouldn't reach for it or something to that effect.
I firmly believe that it has gotten me out of a couple of tickets since the officer visibly relaxed and became more friendly after I had told them. Only once did I have a cop act like a jerk about it. It was the second time through a roadblock (I forgot something and had to go back and an alternate route would have taken me miles out of the way.)
I said "yes" after being asked if I was carrying and he barked that I had to tell him that when handing over my permit. There is no such requirement under SC law but I didn't want to get into a urinating contest over it when he already had an attitude. He was about to do something next when another officer at the roadblock told him to let me go since he had checked me the first time through. He handed back my lic. and waved me through.
I've never been asked to get out of the car or anything like that and I'm not sure how I would react but I'm usually very cooperative and err on the side of caution. If the cop has an attitude, I suddenly stop being cooperative and start asserting my rights. I don't think I would ever consent to a search, not because I have anything to hide, but because I have a 4th amendment right.
As for overzealous cops yanking people out of cars... It's most certainly NOT an urban legend. There was a SC state trooper a few years ago who yanked an elderly woman out THROUGH THE WINDOW because she wouldn't exit the vehicle when told to by the officer. She very clearly informed the officer that she had to take off her seat belt. He grabbed her hand before she could reach for it and sprayed her with pepper spray. Then he yanked her out of the car and slammed her down on the white line. It was all caught on his dash-cam and he was fired, fined and may have even gone to jail for a short time over it.
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The horror stories about getting yanked out of the car and tossed on the ground are, few and far between and IMO a urban legend. But, I am sure someone will toss in a "I was there" story or a "this guy at the gun shop told me it happened to him" story.
I wasn't proned out, but what happened to me was certainly not an urban legend. Read my post here.
I got pulled over once for running a stop light. I ran it, I admit it. When the cop had me step out of the car and approached me, I handed over my DL and CCW and told him that I was carrying. He stepped back, put his hand on his gun and said, "If you move, I will kill you where you stand." Like he was in some kind of bad '80s action movie.
In the course of talking to me, he called me stupid, irresponsible, and then proceeded to cuss me out. I didn't get a ticket, but I don't feel like he did me a favor. I still have a poor opinion of Orange County SO, and the incident was 6 years ago.
The treatment I got from telling him I was carrying convinced me to never disclose again, unless required by law.
ETA: It also convinced me to vote 'no' on any referendum to give Orange County SO more funds for any reason whatsoever.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I was stopped by the local sherrif. Given TX law, I told him I was carrying and where the gun was. He asked: Are you going to shoot me?
I smiled and said No. He said you were in hurry to get to work and I said: Yes.
He just warned me. Two other times, I showed the permit - they just said - thanks and gave me the ticket.
Comply and complain later. However, a friend of mine was stopped in the boonies. He informed the officer who took the gun, cleared it and stuck it in the back of his pants near his butt crack. After the ticket was written, my buddy got the now butt contaminated gun back.
I smiled and said No. He said you were in hurry to get to work and I said: Yes.
He just warned me. Two other times, I showed the permit - they just said - thanks and gave me the ticket.
Comply and complain later. However, a friend of mine was stopped in the boonies. He informed the officer who took the gun, cleared it and stuck it in the back of his pants near his butt crack. After the ticket was written, my buddy got the now butt contaminated gun back.
I understand that a one time anecdotal incident is not representative of the police in general. I understand that many cops are good people doing a hard job, but I consider myself to be a citizen, not a subject. The way that out of control cop made me feel, well, let's just say that I never want to feel that way again.
It only takes one unlikely incident with one bad cop for you to understand.
It only takes one unlikely incident with one bad cop for you to understand.
armsmaster270
New member
"Quote Doublestack Only the law abiding folks follow them. Criminals, by definition, do not. If a criminal is illegally carrying a firearm or has one in his possession, he or she will definately not inform the officer who stopped them. The law abiding citizen will "
Therefore if I see the print of a weapon I am to automaticaly to assume you are a criminal if you hadn't advised me. The main point is I am going to do my best within the law to go home at the end of my shift. Most officers killed in the line of duty are killed on "Routine" Traffic Stops and Domestic Disturbances not armed robbery's or Burglaries. Nobody looks like a criminal some of the nastyest looking guys I have seen turned out to be Federal Narcs and I have arrested murderers that looked like a CEO of a fortune 500 Co. there is no "type" so when I walk up to your car by myself at 0200 I will not take unnecesary chances.
Therefore if I see the print of a weapon I am to automaticaly to assume you are a criminal if you hadn't advised me. The main point is I am going to do my best within the law to go home at the end of my shift. Most officers killed in the line of duty are killed on "Routine" Traffic Stops and Domestic Disturbances not armed robbery's or Burglaries. Nobody looks like a criminal some of the nastyest looking guys I have seen turned out to be Federal Narcs and I have arrested murderers that looked like a CEO of a fortune 500 Co. there is no "type" so when I walk up to your car by myself at 0200 I will not take unnecesary chances.
Horseless Trooper
New member
I don't believe in introducing anything into the conversation that isn't needed. I have had people inform me that they are armed and I will ask to see their permit but not their weapon. If they are legally carrying and tell me then they most likely aren't going to shoot me if they haven't already. A freind of mine was stopped, informed the officer he was packin' and then had to watch the officer fumble around for a few minutes trying to unload his gun to make it "SAFE". Aparently this officer had never handled anything other than his duty weapon and the complexities of the revolver were beyond him.
As to the vehicle search, I would never wiilingly submit to a search of my vehicle! The old "if you have nothing to hide" argument just doesn't wash with me. I kinda like to pretend this is still America.
As to the vehicle search, I would never wiilingly submit to a search of my vehicle! The old "if you have nothing to hide" argument just doesn't wash with me. I kinda like to pretend this is still America.
Doublestack
New member
My Quote:If a criminal is illegally carrying a firearm or has one in his possession, he or she will definately not inform the officer who stopped them. The law abiding citizen will "
I should have added "If asked" Sorry about that.
Absolutely not. I would think that you would immediately ask if I was carrying a weapon, to which I would reply "Yes, how would you like me to proceed?" I don't believe that failure to pre-emptively advise makes one a criminal unless there is a state law which makes it a crime not to inform. Why would you assume that I was a criminal based soley on the fact that I had not advised you that I was armed? I am not trying to be a smartass here. I think that it is important to know how most police officers feel about this subject, and what they expect from the citizenry.
I agree 100%, and I am sure that you are at a hieghtened state of alert when you approach a vehicle. I am certainly not going to make your job any harder, or add to your uncertainty by not offering information that you do not ask for am I? Having worked closely with our police, I have made a lot of friends over the years. I certainly want them to get home safely, as I think most law abiding folks do as well.
And you shouldn't be taking unnecessary chances. I just don't see how a legally armed citizen poses any threat whatsoever to you or other officers. Here is the point. Is a person who is 100% cooperative with you, who obeys the law, and who poses no threat to you, a "risk" by not sharing information that is uncalled for in the first place?
If my firearm is "printing", I am sure that the officer who sees it will address it very quickly, and I will keep my hands on the wheel and tell them all about it. I am, however, very conscious about concealment, so I don't really see that scenario happening. Again, If I was asked about a firearm, or asked to step out of the vehicle, I would immediately inform the officer.
There are a lot of young cops out there who are not like the cops on forums like this one, and feel that no one should be armed but them. I'd prefer that they just give me the ticket and we all just get on with our lives. I also think that LEOs from different areas of the country look at this subject in different ways. We have both kinds up here in New England.
WG840
I should have added "If asked" Sorry about that.
From armsmaster270: Therefore if I see the print of a weapon I am to automaticaly to assume you are a criminal if you hadn't advised me.
Absolutely not. I would think that you would immediately ask if I was carrying a weapon, to which I would reply "Yes, how would you like me to proceed?" I don't believe that failure to pre-emptively advise makes one a criminal unless there is a state law which makes it a crime not to inform. Why would you assume that I was a criminal based soley on the fact that I had not advised you that I was armed? I am not trying to be a smartass here. I think that it is important to know how most police officers feel about this subject, and what they expect from the citizenry.
The main point is I am going to do my best within the law to go home at the end of my shift. Most officers killed in the line of duty are killed on "Routine" Traffic Stops and Domestic Disturbances not armed robbery's or Burglaries.
I agree 100%, and I am sure that you are at a hieghtened state of alert when you approach a vehicle. I am certainly not going to make your job any harder, or add to your uncertainty by not offering information that you do not ask for am I? Having worked closely with our police, I have made a lot of friends over the years. I certainly want them to get home safely, as I think most law abiding folks do as well.
Nobody looks like a criminal some of the nastiest looking guys I have seen turned out to be Federal Narcs and I have arrested murderers that looked like a CEO of a fortune 500 Co. there is no "type" so when I walk up to your car by myself at 0200 I will not take unnecesary chances.
And you shouldn't be taking unnecessary chances. I just don't see how a legally armed citizen poses any threat whatsoever to you or other officers. Here is the point. Is a person who is 100% cooperative with you, who obeys the law, and who poses no threat to you, a "risk" by not sharing information that is uncalled for in the first place?
If my firearm is "printing", I am sure that the officer who sees it will address it very quickly, and I will keep my hands on the wheel and tell them all about it. I am, however, very conscious about concealment, so I don't really see that scenario happening. Again, If I was asked about a firearm, or asked to step out of the vehicle, I would immediately inform the officer.
There are a lot of young cops out there who are not like the cops on forums like this one, and feel that no one should be armed but them. I'd prefer that they just give me the ticket and we all just get on with our lives. I also think that LEOs from different areas of the country look at this subject in different ways. We have both kinds up here in New England.
WG840
Conn. Trooper
New member
Divemedic, Thats a shame what happened, I would not want that done to me either. However, there are lots of members on here and we have come up with just one instance where this has gone on. The rest is, again, in my opinion only, an urban legend.
I will give an example of a worst case scenario, I am working midnight shift in sunny CT. I observe a vehicle driving through an area that has suffered a bunch of overnight commercial burglaries lately. The vehicle has an expired reg. sticker. Thats a violation, not one I would usually stop and ticket for, but it's a great legit reason to stop vehicles in burglary ridden areas. I stop the vehicle and walk up to the car. I approach on the drivers side and as I am speaking to him I see a stainless pistol (later determined it was a Ruger .45 of some kind, I dont remember which model) sticking out from under the drivers seat. I open the door and order the driver out and cuff him. Turns out he has a pistol permit and didnt realize the gun was sticking out from under his seat. He thought it was out of sight and I would not see it. Had he told me as soon as I got to the door that he was a pistol permit holder and had a gun under his seatm things would have gone a lot smoother.
If that had gone another way, say he dropped his license and reached down to get it, I watch his hands and see a gun, who knows what might have come of that?
I will give an example of a worst case scenario, I am working midnight shift in sunny CT. I observe a vehicle driving through an area that has suffered a bunch of overnight commercial burglaries lately. The vehicle has an expired reg. sticker. Thats a violation, not one I would usually stop and ticket for, but it's a great legit reason to stop vehicles in burglary ridden areas. I stop the vehicle and walk up to the car. I approach on the drivers side and as I am speaking to him I see a stainless pistol (later determined it was a Ruger .45 of some kind, I dont remember which model) sticking out from under the drivers seat. I open the door and order the driver out and cuff him. Turns out he has a pistol permit and didnt realize the gun was sticking out from under his seat. He thought it was out of sight and I would not see it. Had he told me as soon as I got to the door that he was a pistol permit holder and had a gun under his seatm things would have gone a lot smoother.
If that had gone another way, say he dropped his license and reached down to get it, I watch his hands and see a gun, who knows what might have come of that?
Interesting to me that the cops in this discussion have, for the most part, said that they appreciated being told and felt safer.
So if we are really the good guys, why not take a simple step that makes the other good guy feel safer and feel that he/she was dealt with courteously? Seems to me that it is safer for everyone and likely to make everything go better if an officer who stops me is comfortable with his knowledge of the whole situation. Maybe the bad cops will be rotten to us either way, but they are the exception, not the rule. So after reading all this, I have decided to always inform.
So if we are really the good guys, why not take a simple step that makes the other good guy feel safer and feel that he/she was dealt with courteously? Seems to me that it is safer for everyone and likely to make everything go better if an officer who stops me is comfortable with his knowledge of the whole situation. Maybe the bad cops will be rotten to us either way, but they are the exception, not the rule. So after reading all this, I have decided to always inform.
To those that don`t immediately inform I would like to ask a question. Let`s say a felony(robbery, burglary, kidnapping etc) has happened in the area you`ve been pulled over in. Discription of car fits yours. You, of course don`t know whats happened. LEO pulls you over, walks up,you give him your DL. You`ve not informed him of your CCP or the fact that your carrying. He see`s you printing . Will you be upset when LEO draws down on you? Not only does the LEO not know us from Adam, we don`t know whats happening in his world at the time. In three different situation( only one when in a vehicle), I`ve been looking down the end of barrels by LEO`s. Two of the situations where when I was helping different people and when the law pulled up they didn`t know who the BG or GG was. The third was a situation I described above. My van fit the discription of a vehicle involved in a holdup. Looking down the barrel of a 12ga. and a 45 isn`t pleasant soooo... to keep the chance from that happening on a routine traffic stop from some rookie or a situation described above, I`ll inform LEO. Again, after the smoke clears, does it matter if your 'dead right'?
Then I ask what does one do in open carry states.What if your shoulder holster riged and you are pulled over because your vehicle fits.How do you inform a LEO in short of yelling out the window your carrying before he/She see the gun and draws down.
My state is CC and in my case would not be seen because I carry about 330ish right side No print. Its impossiable to see from drivers side view even if I was printing.
My state is CC and in my case would not be seen because I carry about 330ish right side No print. Its impossiable to see from drivers side view even if I was printing.
To those that don`t immediately inform I would like to ask a question. Let`s say a felony(robbery, burglary, kidnapping etc) has happened in the area you`ve been pulled over in. Discription of car fits yours. You, of course don`t know whats happened. LEO pulls you over, walks up,you give him your DL. You`ve not informed him of your CCP or the fact that your carrying. He see`s you printing . Will you be upset when LEO draws down on you?
In that scenario, you are probably going to be a felony stop anyhow. Regardless of your permit status.
divemedic and djohn, your probably right on the felony stop. Say car fits discription of a domestic or bar room fight, the perp has never commited a felony, not known to carry a gun but is known to be a rough individual. In other words, LEO will be approaching your car with extreme care but not with guns out. Rest is same as previous scenario. Cop comes up to car, you give DL but don`t inform. Cop see`s you printing.
Not only does the LEO not know us from Adam, we don`t know whats happening in his world at the time.
In GA, open carry in a vehicle is not unlawful with a firearms license (I do believe it's legal without a license, but I will need to check the statutes).
So these arguments about the safety of the officer, while I am sympathetic to the concept, is not universally accepted as a reason to keep a firearm concealed in a vehicle.
Shorts' sentence quoted above, uses words that crystallized an idea I've had trouble putting into words. It is the idea that a population of people need to adapt their behavior for the safety of that small percentage that work to guarantee the main population's safety. It seems a small price to pay.
The problem I see is that I have no personal guarantee from that small group, of safety, yet I, personally, am bound by rules which are intended to guarantee their safety, as a group and individually.
The small price to pay, now seems a tad lopsided, due to the implementation of the rules intended to protect the protectors from those they are intended to protect. All because I don't have a sign or a tag that says, "Safe for Enforcers to Approach".
Along the way, on scene penalties to individuals of the general polulation for not observing the rules intended to protect that small group, which purpose is intended to keep them safe, approach the severity and type, which that small group exists to prevent.
I.e, rules are enacted that allow the protector to say to the individual member of the population, "If you do not observe the rules that are intended to make me safe, you may suffer the same fate from me, that you would from the goblins from which I protect you."
I say, I want out of that deal. I should not have two goblins to worry about. One will always be there and cannot truly be eradicated. The other, we created.
Now, before a professional enforcer or a supporter gets upset at my generalization, understand that, I know that all "police officers" do not fit a worst case scenario. Just consider this idea.
Okay. That's an opinion. I may wish I had worded something differently, but at some point you have to hit that "Submit Reply" button.
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