Ideas for a backup gun

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Why waste a good coat when not necessary?
But good question and there are you tube video's of shooting pocket guns Pistols/Revolvers through coats. Either way, Great concealment and fast.
Sometimes, even Hollywood gets it right. Diligent practice and training is the key.

 

[JustJake]

I just can't conceive of a likely scenario in which I would need a BUG. A BUG takes up space that could be better used for things I'm actually likely to need such as OC.

The one key advantage of a BUG, is that drawing and presentation (i.e., getting it into the fight) will always be faster than attempting to reload your primary weapon, if you had to, under stress.

One is a simple gross motor skill, the other a fine, precise skill. Under stress, the gross motor is skill is faster (draw, point, and shoot).

Hence the ancient police maxim, which developed in the long-ago era when 99.9% of street cops still carried revolvers: "The fastest reload is a second gun."

So back then, carrying two revolvers, the second one typically a smaller J-frame, was considered more prudent than extra "speed loaders" for the primary revolver, either an N-frame or a K-frame.

In the modern era where autoloaders of all types and sizes are ubiquitous, arguably a second, smaller autoloader carried concealed but quickly accessible will be faster to get into the fight (again, if needed) than trying to reload your primary semi-auto from slide-lock.

 

[CDW4ME]

The only time I've ever considered a backup gun was in the winter when I was wearing a heavy coat. I carried a smaller gun in my pocket so I didn't have to fight my way through my parka to get to my primary.

I just can't conceive of a likely scenario in which I would need a BUG. A BUG takes up space that could be better used for things I'm actually likely to need such as OC.

Not trying to convince / persuade you, just providing an example...

Someone carries a 38 snub/LCP/365/Hellcat - whatever - in their dominant hand pocket.
If for any reason their dominant hand is unavailable (ex: holding off attacker, unexpectedly injured) drawing the gun from pocket with weak hand aint gonna be quick or easy.
Same applies to a handgun carried 3:00-4:00 IWB if dominant hand is unavailable, drawing with weak hand may not be easy or quick.

I carry either AIWB or strong side IWB and that does not afford the option of putting my hand on pistol without revealing I'm carrying.
Having a 2nd gun in weak hand front pocket affords me that option, as well as easy access by non-dominant hand. (Its not a back-up, its options).

Again, just providing examples, not trying to change anybody's mind.

 

[Moonglum]

The one key advantage of a BUG, is that drawing and presentation (i.e., getting it into the fight) will always be faster than attempting to reload your primary weapon, if you had to, under stress.

One is a simple gross motor skill, the other a fine, precise skill. Under stress, the gross motor is skill is faster (draw, point, and shoot).

Then why should I practice or even carry reloads?

 

[TruthTellers]

The one key advantage of a BUG, is that drawing and presentation (i.e., getting it into the fight) will always be faster than attempting to reload your primary weapon, if you had to, under stress.

One is a simple gross motor skill, the other a fine, precise skill. Under stress, the gross motor is skill is faster (draw, point, and shoot).

Hence the ancient police maxim, which developed in the long-ago era when 99.9% of street cops still carried revolvers: "The fastest reload is a second gun."

So back then, carrying two revolvers, the second one typically a smaller J-frame, was considered more prudent than extra "speed loaders" for the primary revolver, either an N-frame or a K-frame.

In the modern era where autoloaders of all types and sizes are ubiquitous, arguably a second, smaller autoloader carried concealed but quickly accessible will be faster to get into the fight (again, if needed) than trying to reload your primary semi-auto from slide-lock.

There's another advantage that people don't consider much for some reason and that's a BUG is a second gun you can put into the hands of an ally. Doubles the potential firepower.

 

[AK103K]

The one key advantage of a BUG, is that drawing and presentation (i.e., getting it into the fight) will always be faster than attempting to reload your primary weapon, if you had to, under stress.

One is a simple gross motor skill, the other a fine, precise skill. Under stress, the gross motor is skill is faster (draw, point, and shoot).

It "might" be, if you're practicing your BUG draw as regularly, as you do your primary draw, and you're accustomed to doing it, and you're as good a shot with it. And hopefully, you carry that gun in the same place all the time, like the primary.

I would put the speed of a reload, by someone who practices them regularly, against someone trying to draw a BUG, and especially one that they never practice to do.

Except for those circumstances where you're either out of ammo with no reload left, or you cant for some reason get to the reload and you're rolling around with someone, etc, Im just not seeing that a practiced reload isn't quicker than trying to deal with the empty gun and trying to get the BUG into action.

Im betting that most who are accustomed to doing the reload, will already have the gun loaded and back up and running, and without thinking about doing it.

I think the only way the BUG would come close to that, is if that is the only plan you have, and you skip the reload. Still don't think you'll be quicker though.

 

[JustJake]

Then why should I practice or even carry reloads?

Dude, ....

If you DON'T carry a BUG, then you SHOULD be practicing reloading drills with as many spare mags as you intend to carry on the street.

If you DO carry a BUG, then you SHOULD be practicing the draw and fire sequence once your primary pistol hits slide-lock (if a semi), just as you'd do on the street in a real gunfight.

Hands-down, getting the BUG into the fight will always be faster than the extra seconds it takes to reload your primary weapon.

 

[Moonglum]

Hands-down, getting the BUG into the fight will always be faster than the extra seconds it takes to reload your primary weapon.

Dude,....

This is based on?


While we're here, can we address the fact that after studying thousands of citizen self defense shooting John Corriea has seen exactly ZERO instances in which the fight lasted long enough to require a reload?

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

All of these post about Bug's and reloads, comments like carrying two heavy pistols all day, 16 rds of 10mm etc, always get me to thinking and reflecting on all all the years I have been carrying a EDC. And during that time, listening to the news where someone was shot etc. The thing is, I have never even heard of a situation where anyone had to do this. Even the police shooting are typically one to three rounds. Where does all this irrational fear come from? Even two polls on two well known gun forums showed that almost all the users have never even had to use a EDC. A few reported of shooting one rd two at the most but that was less than 1%.

When I see this use of so much fire power etc. and can only reflect back to situations like when the FBI came into the famous gun fight in Fl. where they were in a shoot out with two of the most violent well armed and skilled Criminals. Do people vision themselves being in a gunfight like the FBI were in on that day?

I carry a small pocket gun on most days. Most of the time in a small light weight holster. It is so easy to EDC all day every day. And I am, what I think is skilled at shooting them. No Pro by any means, but like someone that loves to shoot pool, or play golf and does it often.
But that skill did not come from fear of wanting to protect myself, it actually came from the fact that I just have FUN shooting them. It is enjoyable for me, challenging. I like the friendly competition with the group of Pocket gun shooters that I have belonged with for so many years. Can I do fast reloads, run to different positions, shoot behind different obstacles etc. No. do not care to. Mostly just practice drawing and hitting multiple targets as fast as possible.
Pocket guns and snub nose revolvers. Just fun guns to shoot had have a great hour of relaxing fun or a day at the range. The fact is, I just love shooting. Many people shoot mainly for defense training. Some do not really even like it. Different strokes is fine with me.

The OP asked about a good BUG. Hell, I have no idea. I can tell him what I think is a good small 380 in quality. What I enjoy shooting, what IMO will last a lot of rounds and offer good control and comforting shooting. But I do not carry a BUG, and have no desire to. One small 380 on my hip is what I mainly carry. And LOL, sometimes I think I do not even need that.
Since I do like to shoot the small guns, I felt shooting them so often, I would set goals for what I thought was reasonable and practical. Different drills at close range and then I moved up to drawing and head shots at 15 yds. Just part of having fun and setting realistic goals. Below is the, what I call realistic goals for a actual situation of a gun fight or assualt that could happen. Maybe I set my goals to low, do not train like a cop or FBI etc. Do not want to. Just want to have fun while focusing on realistic defense. My main goal and still is, is to be better than average and have fun while doing it. I believe a actual assault will be quick and decided by the first couple of rounds. And the bad guy always has the advantage of surprise.
I have a much greater fear of a text message driver than I do any bad guy or a gun fight!

 

[AK103K]

I have a much greater fear of a text message driver than I do any bad guy or a gun fight!

Yea, me too.

The other thing that's pretty scary, is all the people carrying guns these days that don't take the time to practice regularly and become proficient with them, and in all respects.

 

[JustJake]

Originally Posted by JustJake View Post
Hands-down, getting the BUG into the fight will always be faster than the extra seconds it takes to reload your primary weapon.

Dude,....
This is based on?

Ah, dude, ... pay attention. We tried this last summer at a range. It ain't rocket science.

You need a IPSC-type timer (or a stop watch), and two guys.

One guy's the "reloader." He's got one gun with a loaded mag inserted, and one spare mag, along with the appropriate holster and belt carrier for the spare mag. The other guy has two guns of his choice and the holsters to draw from. Weapons are drawn from concealment. The "bad guy" is a silhouette target 5-7yds away.

Time both shooters from the draw on the beep (or on command, if using a stop watch).

The reloader draws and shoots to slide-lock (or to an empty cylinder if you're trying this drill with a revolver, but it's the same idea). The timer stops on the first shot after he reloads. What's his time?

Then do the same with the "Two Guns" guy. Time starts on the beep when he draws his primary roscoe. It stops on the first shot from his BUG. What's his time?

Compare and contrast ... and, mostly, edumacate yourself. You can thank me later.

While we're here, can we address the fact that after studying thousands of citizen self defense shooting John Corriea has seen exactly ZERO instances in which the fight lasted long enough to require a reload?

Interesting factoid, but irrelevant to the BUG topic/discussion that was triggered by the OP's original post. You may want to re-read it.

 

[Moonglum]

Ah, dude, ... pay attention. We tried this last summer at a range. It ain't rocket science.

You need a IPSC-type timer (or a stop watch), and two guys.

One guy's the "reloader." He's got one gun with a loaded mag inserted, and one spare mag, along with the appropriate holster and belt carrier for the spare mag. The other guy has two guns of his choice and the holsters to draw from. Weapons are drawn from concealment. The "bad guy" is a silhouette target 5-7yds away.

Time both shooters from the draw on the beep (or on command, if using a stop watch).

The reloader draws and shoots to slide-lock (or to an empty cylinder if you're trying this drill with a revolver, but it's the same idea). The timer stops on the first shot after he reloads. What's his time?

Then do the same with the "Two Guns" guy. Time starts on the beep when he draws his primary roscoe. It stops on the first shot from his BUG. What's his time?

At least you have a basis for your assertion. Now I'm curious as to your sample size.

 

[Moonglum]

I carry a small pocket gun on most days. Most of the time in a small light weight holster. It is so easy to EDC all day every day. And I am, what I think is skilled at shooting them. No Pro by any means, but like someone that loves to shoot pool, or play golf and does it often.
But that skill did not come from fear of wanting to protect myself, it actually came from the fact that I just have FUN shooting them. It is enjoyable for me, challenging. I like the friendly competition with the group of Pocket gun shooters that I have belonged with for so many years. Can I do fast reloads, run to different positions, shoot behind different obstacles etc. No. do not care to. Mostly just practice drawing and hitting multiple targets as fast as possible.
Pocket guns and snub nose revolvers. Just fun guns to shoot had have a great hour of relaxing fun or a day at the range. The fact is, I just love shooting. Many people shoot mainly for defense training. Some do not really even like it. Different strokes is fine with me.

So, you're basically LARPing with a real gun.

Do you have a source for these figures?

 

[Moonglum]

Duplicate

 

[CDW4ME]

Chart says: 3-4 shots usually fired.
We are to assume that is to stop one attacker? And only 1 out of 3-4 bullets fired is a hit?

Lets entertain the possibility of two attackers. Sticking with 3-4 shots fired, that could increase to 8 shots fired (two attackers) with only 2 hits. (Using numbers from chart).

Applying that data, 8 rounds fired to hit each attacker 1 time, just sticking with the chart
While I don't agree with all the findings, another study shows the average number of hits to incapacitate is about 2
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Using that 1 hit (out of 3-4 rounds fired, from the chart) and that the average # hits to incapacitate is 2 - we are potentially coming up short if we started with just 8 rounds.

Of course, some people are tougher to stop than others and my require more than two hits to stop, several more:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-crazed-man-attacking-deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/

That chart of statistics and other data leads us to the conclusion that it would be prudent to have more than 8 rounds available.

 

[mrt949]

The simple answer is because I can if Iwant to .

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Chart says: 3-4 shots usually fired.
We are to assume that is to stop one attacker? And only 1 out of 3-4 bullets fired is a hit?

Lets entertain the possibility of two attackers. Sticking with 3-4 shots fired, that could increase to 8 shots fired (two attackers) with only 2 hits. (Using numbers from chart).

Applying that data, 8 rounds fired to hit each attacker 1 time, just sticking with the chart
While I don't agree with all the findings, another study shows the average number of hits to incapacitate is about 2
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Using that 1 hit (out of 3-4 rounds fired, from the chart) and that the average # hits to incapacitate is 2 - we are potentially coming up short if we started with just 8 rounds.

Of course, some people are tougher to stop than others and my require more than two hits to stop, several more:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-crazed-man-attacking-deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/

That chart of statistics and other data leads us to the conclusion that it would be prudent to have more than 8 rounds available.

Too much focus on the chart. I posted it just as a base for what I believe is a realistic attack, but just a Base. Doe not mean that myself or any of my club members do not do all kinds of drills. We do. And we shoot mostly Steel on Weekends.
You can design your own basic chart. I have had that one for years. And like anything else, I set goals. Lol, when I first shot a pocket gun, I was crap. My first goal was just to hit the target at 7 yds. That was a long time ago and thousands of rounds. I loved the challange they gave from the first time I picked one up and fired it. I still remember that day like it was yesterday. My first thought was wow, that was horrible. My finger hurt and I literally almost did miss the target. Very high right to the top of the target. I remember I was so pissed off that I went to the range every single day for a month. Never at that time did I realize I was venturing into a new hobby which I love.
And it SUCKS now that ammo is so hard to get and so expensive.

 

[ATN082268]

First concealed carry class I went to the instructor carried in an ankle holster. He pointed out that if you have been knocked to the ground the ankle carry may be easier than some of the more traditional, depending on how you land.
He also did point out your pants need to be loose, no peg-leg jeans.

That reminds me of a scene from the movie Red Dragon I saw a long time ago. I think the police officer dropped his weapon or had it taken away from him after being stabbed by Hannibal and when he fell, he went for his handgun in his ankle holster.

 

[Moonglum]

Too much focus on the chart. I posted it just as a base for what I believe is a realistic attack, but just a Base....
You can design your own basic chart. I have had that one for years.

But where did the figures come from?

Never at that time did I realize I was venturing into a new hobby which I love.

Some of us aren't gamers

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Getting back to the OP question. Want some suggestions? Here is a nice little holster you can wear IWB and I like the clip for shorts that do have a belt. A Remora.

Here are a couple of holsters that I love to just carry OWB. DeSantis. I also have them for my Micro 9mm's. They are very Light and ride very close to the body. (Kahr CW380 and Beretta Pico)

My 642 in a trigger Holster

Here is a little holster that I bought when I first started shooting the small guns. It is amazingly versitile. IWB, OWB, Between Belt. and on and on. Cost is about $20.00

LCR

And if looking for advice. I would recommend the possibility of a small 22.cal trainer. With the cost of ammo now, mine have really paid off in keeping my skills honed. Ruger LCR22 and LCP22