FrankDrebin
Moderator
I think I'd only be required to communicate with people within a thousand yards or so of my house. I can walk that far.
I don't want to sound negative.....but
- Thread starter Any .45
- Start date
Rich,
"Mandatory civilian service" ....
S.89
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:S.89:
H.R.163
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquerytr/z?d108:HR00163:
".... and for other purposes"?
What's that last thing? It means in practice, anything they want it to mean.
Tamara,
You are attempting to dismiss this with an obvious exaggeration; something like estimating how much luck the Federal government would have trying to confiscate all the gold in private hands, or privately owned firearms for example. It is not how successful they might be at issue here.
This does not have to be about the entire entire Federal government rounding up 170,000 radio operators. But it can be about putting thousands of them into government service - whether they happen to like it or not at the time.
"Mandatory civilian service" ....
S.89
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:S.89:
H.R.163
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquerytr/z?d108:HR00163:
".... and for other purposes"?
What's that last thing? It means in practice, anything they want it to mean.
Tamara,
You are attempting to dismiss this with an obvious exaggeration; something like estimating how much luck the Federal government would have trying to confiscate all the gold in private hands, or privately owned firearms for example. It is not how successful they might be at issue here.
This does not have to be about the entire entire Federal government rounding up 170,000 radio operators. But it can be about putting thousands of them into government service - whether they happen to like it or not at the time.
as far as hr 163 is concerned:
Latest Major Action: 10/5/2004 Failed of passage/not agreed to in House. Status: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Failed by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 2 - 402 (Roll no. 494).
that one got rolled in the house.
s 89 hasn't been touched for two years, and with the results of hr 163 i can see why.
as far as iran is concerned:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150293,00.html
"Israel has drawn up secret plans for a combined air and ground attack on targets in Iran if diplomacy fails to halt the Iranian nuclear program."
let's hope that diplomacy doesn't fail
Latest Major Action: 10/5/2004 Failed of passage/not agreed to in House. Status: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Failed by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 2 - 402 (Roll no. 494).
that one got rolled in the house.
s 89 hasn't been touched for two years, and with the results of hr 163 i can see why.
as far as iran is concerned:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150293,00.html
"Israel has drawn up secret plans for a combined air and ground attack on targets in Iran if diplomacy fails to halt the Iranian nuclear program."
let's hope that diplomacy doesn't fail
LAK, revive-the-draft bills are not what we were talking about.
Everyone knows there's been ineffectual rumbling in congress about renewing the draft. What I want evidence for is your claim that the government can impress HAM operators into relaying communications during an emergency.
Everyone knows there's been ineffectual rumbling in congress about renewing the draft. What I want evidence for is your claim that the government can impress HAM operators into relaying communications during an emergency.
kennybs plbg
New member
You would think it mandatory for every american citizen to support the country durring an emergency in any way possible. If we need this in writing or a made a law we're really in trouble.
kenny b
Tyme,
What you're not understanding is that the whole point of the phone is not to talk on phone line but to use these as a way of radio communication, either half or full duplex (Like I mentioned in my previous post, not the use of the PSTN line but the radio communication). I seriously doubt that any PSTN lines or any other type of trunk lines would be working if the SHTF. The phones don't need a PSTN line to talk between remote units or to talk from base station to remote unit. Whether or not these phones work on the same Freq. Spectrum as the military aviation does, if the s#!t gets bad there won't be any planes flying around here any way. The senario is for a small type of militia unit or group of armed civilians to be able to communicate, I don't have a HAM radio readily available to me, maybe you do. But like I said before I have a warehouse full of these unit that can be used by multiple people much easier than a ham radio. Most civilians don't know how to use a Ham radio, but I'm pretty sure they know how to use an intercom button on a cordless phone.
This isn't TV, if there is an emergency the cops, ems and fire dept. personnel will be getting their s#!t together, group up to prepare for what ever is going to happen whether it's an invasion, chemical or biological weapons, whatever it is there going to worry about there families and there stuff and try to get with their buddies to be ready to fight. Keep all the women and children that aren't prepared to fight put them somewhere safe, get the men and women that are prepared to fight and get moving, F the FCC and their regs when the s#!t gets going, I'm going to get whatever means of comm. and survival that I can, regroup with my people and get ready, I'm not going to worry about some damn FCC regs. when we need to defend ourselves. I hope the military uses a diffrent kind of transmission mode than our phones use so the interference won't be to bad, or hope I can find a HAM radio (Which if the SHTF I will use unlicensed, if I can get to one). I'm in Miami,FL 140 miles from Cuba, if the SHTF Cuba is what I'm worried about, if you get my drift.
What you're not understanding is that the whole point of the phone is not to talk on phone line but to use these as a way of radio communication, either half or full duplex (Like I mentioned in my previous post, not the use of the PSTN line but the radio communication). I seriously doubt that any PSTN lines or any other type of trunk lines would be working if the SHTF. The phones don't need a PSTN line to talk between remote units or to talk from base station to remote unit. Whether or not these phones work on the same Freq. Spectrum as the military aviation does, if the s#!t gets bad there won't be any planes flying around here any way. The senario is for a small type of militia unit or group of armed civilians to be able to communicate, I don't have a HAM radio readily available to me, maybe you do. But like I said before I have a warehouse full of these unit that can be used by multiple people much easier than a ham radio. Most civilians don't know how to use a Ham radio, but I'm pretty sure they know how to use an intercom button on a cordless phone.
.
This isn't TV, if there is an emergency the cops, ems and fire dept. personnel will be getting their s#!t together, group up to prepare for what ever is going to happen whether it's an invasion, chemical or biological weapons, whatever it is there going to worry about there families and there stuff and try to get with their buddies to be ready to fight. Keep all the women and children that aren't prepared to fight put them somewhere safe, get the men and women that are prepared to fight and get moving, F the FCC and their regs when the s#!t gets going, I'm going to get whatever means of comm. and survival that I can, regroup with my people and get ready, I'm not going to worry about some damn FCC regs. when we need to defend ourselves. I hope the military uses a diffrent kind of transmission mode than our phones use so the interference won't be to bad, or hope I can find a HAM radio (Which if the SHTF I will use unlicensed, if I can get to one). I'm in Miami,FL 140 miles from Cuba, if the SHTF Cuba is what I'm worried about, if you get my drift.
life after doomsday
I may be older than most on this thread..child of the cold war here...an
excellent book on the topic of preparedness, communications, etc..is "Life After Doomsday"..this is not your typical half-baked survivalist stuff that may or may not be useful..this is a real PhD scientist with some real information and sources...for additional specifics on nuclear issues look for materials from Kearney (such as the kearney fallout meter..a home-made geiger counter-like item)...this guy was a scientist with the nuclear industry and research and developed some interesting information of value to the average citizen....AND, if anybody knows of any more recent, updated materials of real value on these topics, please list it for us./.thanks.
I may be older than most on this thread..child of the cold war here...an
excellent book on the topic of preparedness, communications, etc..is "Life After Doomsday"..this is not your typical half-baked survivalist stuff that may or may not be useful..this is a real PhD scientist with some real information and sources...for additional specifics on nuclear issues look for materials from Kearney (such as the kearney fallout meter..a home-made geiger counter-like item)...this guy was a scientist with the nuclear industry and research and developed some interesting information of value to the average citizen....AND, if anybody knows of any more recent, updated materials of real value on these topics, please list it for us./.thanks.
kearny search
just out of curiosity I put kearny fallout meter in the little box and did a general search...still a lot out there...new and improved kit versions available..
likewise, life after doomsday still in print and still considered the classic in this area...for those who just want the information (and information is power)...and for those who want to begin steps toward a survivalists preparation...there is still a wealth of information and material out there.
Unfortunately, the term "survivalist" has political connotations these days and conjures visions of some neo-nazi cult thing..BUT, a survivalist is simply an independent soul who does not plan on just laying down to die in a crisis and who takes reasonable and informed steps to being prepared to tend to self and family when normal support systems fail and need not involve politics anymore than needed to insure the right and materials to personally prepare.. Communications, while important is only a small piece of the overall need. Good luck.
just out of curiosity I put kearny fallout meter in the little box and did a general search...still a lot out there...new and improved kit versions available..
likewise, life after doomsday still in print and still considered the classic in this area...for those who just want the information (and information is power)...and for those who want to begin steps toward a survivalists preparation...there is still a wealth of information and material out there.
Unfortunately, the term "survivalist" has political connotations these days and conjures visions of some neo-nazi cult thing..BUT, a survivalist is simply an independent soul who does not plan on just laying down to die in a crisis and who takes reasonable and informed steps to being prepared to tend to self and family when normal support systems fail and need not involve politics anymore than needed to insure the right and materials to personally prepare.. Communications, while important is only a small piece of the overall need. Good luck.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
LAK-
Been off hunting for three days. I would think that'd be plenty of time for you to produce your source for the statement that there is a law that impresses Ham Radio operators into Federal Service in the event of National Disaster...and further requires forced Civil Service by all.
Perhaps you're off hunting, too?
In any case, as has been pointed out, all I'm able to find is bills introduced to Congress. Man, if we're gonna start assuming every Bill introduced by a Mosaic of Minds, equally as divergent as those posting on the Internet, is somehow Dots on The Road map to The Global Plantation, we'd have to be......you?
One more LAK Urban Myth dismissed.
Rich
Been off hunting for three days. I would think that'd be plenty of time for you to produce your source for the statement that there is a law that impresses Ham Radio operators into Federal Service in the event of National Disaster...and further requires forced Civil Service by all.
Perhaps you're off hunting, too?
In any case, as has been pointed out, all I'm able to find is bills introduced to Congress. Man, if we're gonna start assuming every Bill introduced by a Mosaic of Minds, equally as divergent as those posting on the Internet, is somehow Dots on The Road map to The Global Plantation, we'd have to be......you?
One more LAK Urban Myth dismissed.
Rich
RE: Senate Bill 89 and House Resolution 163 ... Yes, we know they are not currently going anywhere. But how many of you dream for a second that after the next major event, the one (or ones) we have been told repeatedly by the Bush administration are inevitable - the Congress and whichever administration in the WH is not going to be falling over itself to pass it?
I know; they'll all read the bill this time, and they'll never pass a bill that says "mandatory civilian service" right? I mean Congress will reject that right off.
Rich and Tyme,
Just read the Executive Orders covering things like "National Emergencies"; starting with EO 11000, 10995 and 10997 under John F. Kennedy. The trail is convoluted; Nixon combined many under EO 11490, Carter with 12148, Clinton again with EO 12919 and in recent years George W. Bush has changed some of the administrative organization and structures with the creation of the Department of Homeland Security etc. But the bottom line is the same.
They can press you or anyone else into government service under Executive emergency powers for basic labor alone. If you have specialized skill and equipment under Federal Licence like communications, they certainly can as well.
The subject is also mentioned in the United States code, for example in Title 42 Chapter 68, subchapter IV-B covering "Emergency Preparedness". Section 5195a contains some relevent material, including some very open-ended language.
Urban myth indeed. Don't know why you have such a tough time accepting this. It really goes back to the War and Emergency Powers Act (1933), but decades of EOs give organizations like FEMA, and now DHS all the "legal" force they need. And then some.
I know; they'll all read the bill this time, and they'll never pass a bill that says "mandatory civilian service" right? I mean Congress will reject that right off.
Rich and Tyme,
Just read the Executive Orders covering things like "National Emergencies"; starting with EO 11000, 10995 and 10997 under John F. Kennedy. The trail is convoluted; Nixon combined many under EO 11490, Carter with 12148, Clinton again with EO 12919 and in recent years George W. Bush has changed some of the administrative organization and structures with the creation of the Department of Homeland Security etc. But the bottom line is the same.
They can press you or anyone else into government service under Executive emergency powers for basic labor alone. If you have specialized skill and equipment under Federal Licence like communications, they certainly can as well.
The subject is also mentioned in the United States code, for example in Title 42 Chapter 68, subchapter IV-B covering "Emergency Preparedness". Section 5195a contains some relevent material, including some very open-ended language.
Urban myth indeed. Don't know why you have such a tough time accepting this. It really goes back to the War and Emergency Powers Act (1933), but decades of EOs give organizations like FEMA, and now DHS all the "legal" force they need. And then some.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
LAK-
I looked up the first four EO's and then fell asleep from the effort. No where do they speak to the issue of Forced Labor. Rather, during the period of the Cold War when many of us were doing Nuclear Holocaust drills to prove we could kiss our butts goodbye, they speak to Disaster Preparedness.
To the extent they suggest that Civilian Labor would be mobilized and recruited, I'd think that is a pretty mundane and common sense approach. But Forced Labor? You really have to squint pretty hard and back up your interpretation of the words with equally paranoid "data points" from other documents....a skill which you have apparently mastered with great zeal.
Honestly, living at the edge of the precipice every day, as you do, I'm amazed you're able to make it thru. Us Average Joes would certainly go quite mad, knowing what you do.
I looked up the first four EO's and then fell asleep from the effort. No where do they speak to the issue of Forced Labor. Rather, during the period of the Cold War when many of us were doing Nuclear Holocaust drills to prove we could kiss our butts goodbye, they speak to Disaster Preparedness.
To the extent they suggest that Civilian Labor would be mobilized and recruited, I'd think that is a pretty mundane and common sense approach. But Forced Labor? You really have to squint pretty hard and back up your interpretation of the words with equally paranoid "data points" from other documents....a skill which you have apparently mastered with great zeal.
From your lips to God's ear.LAK said:
Honestly, living at the edge of the precipice every day, as you do, I'm amazed you're able to make it thru. Us Average Joes would certainly go quite mad, knowing what you do.
Rich,
Right. I think half the country has fallen asleep. "Disaster preparedness" would apply to any disaster - natural or manmade in the context we are discussing - what would result in a declared state of "national emergency" by the Executive power.
It's in black and white, and couldn't be simpler to understand. In EO 10997 it states under Sec. 3 Resource Functions:
"(d) Claimancy. Prepare plans to claim materials, manpower, equipment, supplies and services needed in support of assigned responsibilities and other essential functions of the Department before the appropriate agency, and work with such agencies in developing programs to insure availability of such resources in an emergency."
EO 11000 states under Sec. 2 Functions:
"(e) Requirements. Develop, in coordination with manpower-usage agencies, plans, procedures and standards for presenting claims for civilian manpower, periodically obtain and analyze or make estimates of requirements for manpower, in total and by specific skill categories and occupations currently and for any emergency, taking into account the estimates of needs for military and civilian purposes; and advise other agencies on the manpower implications of alternative program decisions. Such evaluation shall take into consideration the geographical distribution of requirements under emergency conditions."
Look up the word "claim" and term "national emergency" in a Black's Law Dictionary.
When a briefcase nuke, bioweapon or other "WMD event" wipes out a small town, a port and perhaps a city or two, our digital dollar dives to the ocean floor along with Wall Streetr; do you think FEMA using legislated Executive emergency powers going back to the Emergency and War powers Act and these subsequent EOs - are going to go around asking for "volunteers"?
Give me a break
One more big "terrorist" event combined with most of our army claiming and guarding real estate overseas, and one of those draft bills will run through Congress like goose kakka.
Right. I think half the country has fallen asleep. "Disaster preparedness" would apply to any disaster - natural or manmade in the context we are discussing - what would result in a declared state of "national emergency" by the Executive power.
It's in black and white, and couldn't be simpler to understand. In EO 10997 it states under Sec. 3 Resource Functions:
"(d) Claimancy. Prepare plans to claim materials, manpower, equipment, supplies and services needed in support of assigned responsibilities and other essential functions of the Department before the appropriate agency, and work with such agencies in developing programs to insure availability of such resources in an emergency."
EO 11000 states under Sec. 2 Functions:
"(e) Requirements. Develop, in coordination with manpower-usage agencies, plans, procedures and standards for presenting claims for civilian manpower, periodically obtain and analyze or make estimates of requirements for manpower, in total and by specific skill categories and occupations currently and for any emergency, taking into account the estimates of needs for military and civilian purposes; and advise other agencies on the manpower implications of alternative program decisions. Such evaluation shall take into consideration the geographical distribution of requirements under emergency conditions."
Look up the word "claim" and term "national emergency" in a Black's Law Dictionary.
When a briefcase nuke, bioweapon or other "WMD event" wipes out a small town, a port and perhaps a city or two, our digital dollar dives to the ocean floor along with Wall Streetr; do you think FEMA using legislated Executive emergency powers going back to the Emergency and War powers Act and these subsequent EOs - are going to go around asking for "volunteers"?
Give me a break
One more big "terrorist" event combined with most of our army claiming and guarding real estate overseas, and one of those draft bills will run through Congress like goose kakka.
LAK ole buddy,
No it's not fantasy. It's not fact either.
Methinks your fellows over @ 1911 are just overreacting.
Here's a link to FEMA that deals with Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service (RACES).
Yes - you can be *drafted* (pressed into service) in times of a declared emergency.
HOWEVER - Just having a licence doesn't mean your eligible for the *draft*.
"2-2. RACES Eligibility.
Any United States citizen, who possesses a valid FCC Amateur Radio Operator License, technician class or higher, is eligible to become a member of RACES. The services of amateurs who have a Novice Class license may be used, but this is not recommended due to the privilege limitations."
So in order to be *drafted*, first you need to pass the technician test, then join RACES - then you can be *drafted*.
http://www.fema.gov/library/civilpg.shtm
Hal,
I know you are trying to be polite; the forum you mention was not the inspiration for Kennedy and subsequent presidents to sign their respective EOs - nor the EOs to be specifically worded the way they are.
Under "ideal conditions", I am sure FEMA guidelines would be well adhered to; a hurricane disaster area, a catastrophic earthquake spanning a huge area etc. You might note, as I pointed out to another, that this is not about FEMA rounding up every single person with a HAM license and locking them in a shack with a big antenna on top.
But in the event that a declared state of national emergency in this country in the wake of a another, or series of, major "terrorist" events - and perhaps an economic meltdown - you can bank on things getting a little less orderly.
A series of EOs basically allow for the claim - seizure - of anything; from people to property. Be it private transport to food or fuel. Manpower is but one facet.
I know you are trying to be polite; the forum you mention was not the inspiration for Kennedy and subsequent presidents to sign their respective EOs - nor the EOs to be specifically worded the way they are.
Under "ideal conditions", I am sure FEMA guidelines would be well adhered to; a hurricane disaster area, a catastrophic earthquake spanning a huge area etc. You might note, as I pointed out to another, that this is not about FEMA rounding up every single person with a HAM license and locking them in a shack with a big antenna on top.
But in the event that a declared state of national emergency in this country in the wake of a another, or series of, major "terrorist" events - and perhaps an economic meltdown - you can bank on things getting a little less orderly.
A series of EOs basically allow for the claim - seizure - of anything; from people to property. Be it private transport to food or fuel. Manpower is but one facet.
jburtonpdx
New member
"So in order to be *drafted*, first you need to pass the technician test, then join RACES - then you can be *drafted*."
Most of us Hams that get involved in community service are volunteering for situations like this in any case. I personally see it as a form of service to my community and in an emergency will volunteer to help anyway. A large portion of hams are the same way... In some cases of emergencys hams are turned away as they just show up to help out of the blue.
Most of us Hams that get involved in community service are volunteering for situations like this in any case. I personally see it as a form of service to my community and in an emergency will volunteer to help anyway. A large portion of hams are the same way... In some cases of emergencys hams are turned away as they just show up to help out of the blue.
Exactly. Which is why I starred (*) drafted. You need to be a volunteer in order to be pressed into service. But. Even if you volunteer, you need to be a certain skill level to qualify. Even then,,,your probably still going to be on a long list.
HAMmies and even CB'ers have a longstanding tradition worldwide of pitching in when needed.
(FWIW - and even more importantly, they also have the good sense to know when NOT to gum up the works by getting involved - HAM especially. CB'ers OTOH,,,oh well,,at least they run low power<usually>).
LAK,
Polite?!?!?! Me?!?!?! LOL! I've been called a lot of things but seldom polite
.Anyhow, keep digging. I think you need to go back a lot farther the Kennedy though to make your case. I suggest maybe the 1930's and FDR.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Does "claim" mean:LAK said:
a) "This hospital is now designated a Central Burn Facility"
b) "This Arms Contractor will build generators on an Emergency Basis"
c) "This State Road Crew is now under Federal Employment to rebuild that bridge."
d) "LAK, get on your radio and notify the Storm Troopers that we have an attempted 'breakout' of forced labor over the Golden Gate Bridge. Then get your shovel and dig me a pit 15' deep and 15' wide. We'll be needing it when you and your family are no longer productive."
e) All of the above.
Under that very EO the President "can" order anything he'd like. For instance, he "can" order Congress dismissed and the Legislators into the copper mines; he "can" order the Supreme Court to be shelled and its Justices to shovel human waste off the streets; and he "can" order the harvesting of livers from the populace, as necessary "resources" for the Army's diet. The question is, "can" he succeed?
EO's, being intentionally broad, provide much fodder for those inclined to paranoia and despair. I find them to be an un-Constitutional abuse of power and dangerous nuisance....that's bad enough, I think. Guess I'm just not squinting hard enough.
Rich
Hal,
I did mention the 1933 Act. That is of course from where the legal authority stems. There have been some other legislative acts as well, but the EOs simply "direct" the Federal agencies "what to do and how". The legal authority to do so is assumed or presumed in all cases; terminology like "claim" prove this aptly.
Rich,
Claim means "to demand as one's own or as one's right". Or; "means by or through which claimant obtains possession or enjoyment of a privilege or thing." Or; "Demand for money or property as of a right."
So that would be "e) All of the above"
I agree with you in principle, and EOs should be limited to the internal operation of the Federal government, departments and agencies, etc. But regardless, they are what will constitute the rules of the game as administered by controlling Federal agencies such as FEMA in a "national emergency" or "disaster".
I did mention the 1933 Act. That is of course from where the legal authority stems. There have been some other legislative acts as well, but the EOs simply "direct" the Federal agencies "what to do and how". The legal authority to do so is assumed or presumed in all cases; terminology like "claim" prove this aptly.
Rich,
Claim means "to demand as one's own or as one's right". Or; "means by or through which claimant obtains possession or enjoyment of a privilege or thing." Or; "Demand for money or property as of a right."
So that would be "e) All of the above"
I agree with you in principle, and EOs should be limited to the internal operation of the Federal government, departments and agencies, etc. But regardless, they are what will constitute the rules of the game as administered by controlling Federal agencies such as FEMA in a "national emergency" or "disaster".
Rich Lucibella
Staff
LAK-
Does that mean "they" Will be coming for my liver?
Granted, you've proved that "claims" MAY be made by stretching the scope of an EO, Law or Court Ruling....I think we all know that power abuse is always possible. But that's a far cry from your earlier assertion that Forced Labor WILL be the order of the day in the event of disaster.
Rich
Does that mean "they" Will be coming for my liver?
Granted, you've proved that "claims" MAY be made by stretching the scope of an EO, Law or Court Ruling....I think we all know that power abuse is always possible. But that's a far cry from your earlier assertion that Forced Labor WILL be the order of the day in the event of disaster.
Rich