How to fit a 1911 .45 internal extractor

RickB

New member
Quote:
As the slide moves rearward there comes a point when the disconnector rail is no longer in contact with the top most cartridge or the follower and there will be a sudden upward motion.

When you are talking about something that happens in less than a millisecond everything is pretty sudden not just one thing and amazingly all of that is taken into account for the function of the arm. Mr. Yam in his best form could not light a candle to Mr.Browning.

My Commander will eject every case except the last one, which is left sitting on top of the magazine, and which rattles out of the well along with the mag when reloading.
That is certainly evidence that a loaded magazine does assist with ejection in a .45 with a short, G.I. style ejector.
Extended ejectors may contact the rim before the magwell has been cleared by the rearward-moving slide, and there's no "assist" from the top round.
 

polyphemus

New member
My Commander will eject every case except the last one, which is left sitting on top of the magazine, and which rattles out of the well along with the mag when reloading.
That is certainly evidence that a loaded magazine does assist with ejection in a .45 with a short, G.I. style ejector.
Extended ejectors may contact the rim before the magwell has been cleared by the rearward-moving slide, and there's no "assist" from the top round.
The top round is supposed to assist ejection it is in the design.
Extended ejectors protrude maybe a 1/16"little more and that does not keep the top round down and prevent it from pushing the round being ejected,ok you are saying that it is only the last round that fails to be ejected,here you may be looking at more than one cause for the stoppage,a magazine issue? you'll have to do some careful observation of the malfunction and go thru a process of elimination to solve it.
 
My Commander will eject every case except the last one, which is left sitting on top of the magazine . . .
This is usually a symptom of an extractor that needs attention. The extractor is losing control of the case which could be due to not enough tension or a tensioning wall that has been radiused too high from the bottom. If this is the problem, as the case moves down the breechface it will get to the point of the tensioning wall that has been radiused and is no longer applying sufficient pressure against the case rim to hold it.

Areas "C" and "D" here: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6681359&postcount=2

It's also possible though very rare that the J cut on the breechface was incorrectly cut allowing the case to miss getting solid contact with the ejector.


Extended ejectors may contact the rim before the magwell has been cleared by the rearward-moving slide, and there's no "assist" from the top round.
Entirely possible but contact between the ejector and the top round in the magazine is not a good thing. If there is contact, the continuous tapping of the next round in the magazine as it pops up against the ejector can bend or break the ejector. Think Chinese water torture.
 
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That is certainly evidence that a loaded magazine does assist with ejection in a .45 with a short, G.I. style ejector.
I just checked a couple of Commanders to be sure I what I'm about to say is correct. If you fit a new ejector that has a nose so long that you can't eject a loaded round and you file the nose back until it will just barely eject a loaded round, empty cases will eject without any help from the next round in the magazine. I fit the ejectors this way purposely and they have functioned perfectly for many thousands of handloaded and factory rounds.

You can see what your ejector is doing by removing the recoil spring, sliding an empty case under the extractor, chambering the empty case, inserting a loaded magazine into the pistol, and then slowly pulling the slide back until the case is knocked off the extractor by the ejector or until the next round in the magazine suddenly pops up.

When I do this it's easier if I pull the slide off then put the empty case under the extractor claw and push the barrel back to chamber the case. Then I put the slide back on the frame and insert the slide stop to hold it all together. Then I insert the mag and pull the slide back.
 

tlm225

New member
I join the call to make this a sticky in the smithy sub-forum. Thanks Steve. This was very informative, including the differing view points.
 
Extractor length follow-up

The length of various extractors came up earlier in this thread.

I measured an EGW Heavy Duty extractor that I had on hand and it's length was 2.3465". I contacted Cylinder & Slide and found out that their Ultimate extractor measured 2.365". So the C&S was .0185" longer than the EGW.

If anyone has other extractors, I'd be interested to know how their length compares to these two.

EGW 2.3465"
C&S 2.365"

Length is defined as "distance" in the picture below.



p08FAuk.jpg
 

Hammerhead

New member
Be careful. This was all about .45 ACP extractors.

The concept is the same in as much as you have to address geometry, deflection, and tension but the dimensions don't apply to the 9mm.

Additionally, there are two schools of thought on how a 9mm extractor should apply pressure against the case. One way is as shown by niemi24s in his drawing where the case rim is in contact with the extractor's tensioning wall. The other way is for the edge of the 9mm extractor claw to be in contact with the flat portion of the case between the rim and the bevel. It's more difficult to make the 9mm tensioning wall apply the pressure. It's easier to make the 9mm claw apply the pressure. Easier is not always better though.
Thanks for the response.
Just got the EGW FPS fitted and radiused and added a little needed tension to the Ed Brown competition extractor.
The claw is touching the flat area at the bottom of the case groove, and there is a gap between the rim and the tensioning wall, roughly .015".
The claw in contact may not be optimal, but at least it sounds like a successful method.

I have light tension, just enough to hold an empty case in place in any orientation.

I know I don't want too much tension on the extractor with the light 12 pound recoil spring, that can cause feed issues too.

I think I'm going to try it as is with the claw riding in the groove, it's not hitting the bevel of the case, and I can always remove a little metal from the claw later. Tougher to put it back.
 
The claw is touching the flat area at the bottom of the case groove, and there is a gap between the rim and the tensioning wall, roughly .015". The claw in contact may not be optimal, but at least it sounds like a successful method.

I have light tension, just enough to hold an empty case in place in any orientation. I know I don't want too much tension on the extractor with the light 12 pound recoil spring, that can cause feed issues too.
Sounds good to go. I'll be interested to know how it all works out.

As an FYI the ideal distance between the breechface and extractor claw is:

  • .060" for 9mm
  • .065" for 40 S&W and 10mm
  • .075" for .45 ACP
 

Hammerhead

New member
Success!
Finally got to the range, +21º felt like a heat wave.
Shot about 50 rounds in the 9mm Kimber with no issues at all. Ejection was very consistent except for the last round of each mag which was a bit erratic, but nothing landed closer than 2' to the gun. Most landed at a very consistent 6' at 4 o'clock.

The small radius firing pin stop was a nice surprise, really smoothing out the recoil cycle. Felt like the slide was gliding instead of slamming. I thought that might cause trouble with my light target loads, but everything ejected about the same distance it used to.
 
Finally got to the range, +21º felt like a heat wave.

Shot about 50 rounds in the 9mm Kimber with no issues at all. Ejection was very consistent except for the last round of each mag which was a bit erratic, but nothing landed closer than 2' to the gun.
Ahh, the sweet feeling of victory. Great news.

The last case ejected wasn't the same as the previous ones because the last case isn't being helped out of the ejection port by the next round in the magazine that taps the previous case as it snaps up into place against the feed lips.

FWI, it was over 50 degrees in PA today. Tomorrow will be the same and then back to winter temps after that.
 
Extractor Fitting Pad - how to

Steve, I'm confused about getting the needed deflection. I've had to file A LOT of the locator pad off to the point where it is almost gone. Now I am getting only a tiny bit of deflection.
Being able to file down the extractor's locating pad to achieve the correct deflection is a critical skill. The idea is to file a little off the pad then install the extractor and firing pin stop. Then slide your homemade gauge up the breechface to see if the the extractor's tensioning wall just touches the gauge.

The locating pad MUST be in contact with the inboard surface of the extractor tunnel in order to accurately determine its deflection. That means you have to bend the extractor each time you remove material from the pad so that it will maintain this crucial metal-to-metal contact.

My original method

I'm not good enough with a file to be able to evenly reduce the diameter of the extractor locating pad all the way around. So, to simplify and speed up the process of filing down the locating pad and since I couldn't evenly file the half round locating pad I simply whacked off the top and bottom of the pad leaving a narrow point that became the contact surface with the extractor tunnel.

Here's what the locating pad looks like as it comes from the manufacturer. This view is looking straight on the extractor from the front.

tdnszwr.gif


What I did was to file the top and bottom of the pad down to the dotted lines with a pillar file to create a pointed shape as shown below. Filing a flat is way easier for me than trying to follow a curve.

eGFcmBL.gif


Once that was done all I had to do was file the point itself down bit by bit until I achieved a .010" deflection.

udyeLyV.gif


My newest method

I first I hog out the sides of the pad using a Dremel grinding bit. Not very exotic but it's all I have that'll do the job.

jLdKEO3.jpg


Then I smooth the concave cut-outs by hand using sandpaper wrapped around a short piece of steel rod. Getting the area smooth is not just about cosmetics. It's also about removing the stress risers. By the time I finish up the pad looks like this:

4eCIXYR.jpg


This is all just prep work for the real work of setting the deflection by filing down the now reshaped fitting pad.

As I file down the pad, I may reach a point where the tip of the pad is too wide in my judgement and I will hog out the sides again and smooth them in order to avoid the edges of the now flat and too wide area making contact with the tunnel wall instead of what used to be the peak of the "mountain".
 
Deflection gauges

As described in a previous post I made a feeler gauge out of a piece of steel stock. As I file down the extractor locating pad I will install the extractor along with the firing pin stop then slide this gauge up along the breechface between the left guide block and the extractor's tensioning wall. When the sides of the gauge just touch the guide block and tensioning wall at the same time, I know I've reached the correct amount of deflection and don't need to remove any more material from the locating pad.

Many kinds of material can be used to make these gauges. They can be made of plastic, wood, aluminum, and probably many other materials. Since they don't wear they don't need to be made from steel. I floated the idea of making sets of these gauges using a 3D printer to George (EGW).

A friend shared that he makes these gauges out of old sear leaf springs. As he wrote: "I make them from old sear springs. Just break off the two outer legs and thin down the remaining "paddle" width to .465".

T1zdTst.jpg
 

anon emous

New member
extractor

I came to this thread because of feeding problems with one manufacturers magazines with the GI feed lips. The other brand uses hybrid feed lips and had no issues. The loading never felt smooth anyway.

As a first step I removed the extractor. The action became very smooth. This led me to start looking at the extractor as the problem.

When I saw the picture of a “perfect” extractor I measured mine and determined that it was not possible to achieve. Then I found various drawings that confirm my 1911 was in spec.
I purchased and installed a shorter extractor (0.02”) from the only manufacturer I found that advertises this dimension. Even before adjusting the tension I could tell that this was going to work. At the range I had zero issues and all rounds made a nice little pile at the 4 oclock position about 4 feet away.

My question is how could this have been an issue for over a hundred years? If you look at the drawings available on the internet then the claw must contact the round even on paper. JMB was too meticulous...

signed,
confused
 
My question is how could this have been an issue for over a hundred years?
The good news is it wasn't an issue for over a hundred years. I'm not a firearms historian so those who are may rightfully nit-pick what I'm about to say.

The 1911 was designed to meet the military requirement that all parts be interchangeable between pistols without the need for additional fitting. This requirement was frequently tested throughout the production phase by obtaining random samples of all the parts, tossing them into a barrel, then assembling however many pistols worth of parts were in the barrel. Every pistol had to function and pass all safety tests.

In order to achieve this feat of mass production, each part had to meet the blueprint specs. Every company that made 1911s (e.g. Singer, Rand, Colt, etc) used the exact same blueprints.

Fast forward to today. Everyone and his brother makes 1911s and none of them use the same blueprints or have the same stringent quality control demanded by the military back in the day. What you end up with are different dimensions depending on who does the manufacturing. So, one manufacturer's slide may well have a different distance from the firing pin stop slot to the breechface than any other manufacturer's slide. This alone would cause problems with finding the correct length extractor.

If there were only a single company that manufactured 1911s and used the original Ordnance approved blueprints, these dimensional problems wouldn't exist. Only Glock makes Glocks, only Smith & Wesson makes Smith & Wessons, only SIG make SIGs, etc. They don't have these problems (unless their QC is bad).

If you look at the drawings available on the internet then the claw must contact the round even on paper.
There is some debate on this which revolves around the issue of using mid-spec dimensions, tolerance stacking, and whether such drawings are from the actual Ordnance blueprints. I don't have a dog in this fight so cannot comment meaningfully.

However, I will say that a 1911 .45 ACP extractor claw works best when it does not touch the case anywhere. Further, the only contact between the case and the extractor should be at the case rim and the tensioning wall.

Since we know that manufacturing dimensions are all over the place, the axiom is that there is no such thing as a drop-in 1911 part. Nearly every part has to be massaged in some way in order to get it to work perfectly with all the other parts. The degree to which a part has to be modified depends on who manufactured which part and when.

It's very rare that an extractor can be used out-of-the-box without getting some attention especially if you're looking for perfect functioning. You may get lucky and find one that drops in and the pistol functions fine but that usually happens when the manufacturer made both the slide and the extractor (e.g. Wilson, Caspian). Once you get an extractor properly fitted, it will last a very long time without any problems at all. We're talking about tens of thousands of rounds. Basically, when the barrel needs to be replaced because it has become a smooth bore, replace the extractor.

Anyway, that's the joy of 1911s. You get to tweak these things to your heart's content to get them to work the way you want them to work. Glocks are no fun - they run right out of the box.
 

Hammerhead

New member
Well, it been about 18 months and my Kimber runs as smooth as can be.
Hasn't missed a beat.
Even very light loads that don't have enough recoil to lock the slide open will feed, extract and eject cleanly.

Just wanted to say thanks to Steve in Allentown.
 
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