How to fit a 1911 .45 internal extractor

[polyphemus]

The idea is that the extractor must hold onto the empty case well enough that the case doesn't get loose from the extractor until it smacks the ejector. The most expedient way to determine this is to run the test I described

The slide should not be slamming on an empty chamber.Deliberately doing this is not "expedient".
Also the gouge in the extraction groove rear face is caused not by an out of tune extractor but an out of specs one,the M1911 pistol functions correctly thank you with parts machined to specs and by rights does not need any tuning or enhancements,the parts may need repairs when out of spec but that is not a design flaw and all this bevelin' and polishin' appears to be an attempt to correct defects in a poor quality part.

 

[polyphemus]

As the slide moves rearward there comes a point when the disconnector rail is no longer in contact with the top most cartridge or the follower and there will be a sudden upward motion.

When you are talking about something that happens in less than a millisecond everything is pretty sudden not just one thing and amazingly all of that is taken into account for the function of the arm.Mr. Yam in his best form could not light a candle to Mr.Browning.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Yes, I added his screen name to the drawings. If using the words "created by" do not clearly identify him as the author, I look to your guidance for the proper words.

https://yourbusiness.azcentral.com/give-copyright-credit-images-2791.html

https://penandthepad.com/how-8578491-write-photo-credits.html

https://www.lifewire.com/what-is-photo-credit-line-1077915

Aside from properly identifying both the photographer/artist and the source, outside of the image itself, it is also mandatory to seek permission before using someone else's work, and to state that it is being used "courtesy of" or "with permission of" the copyright owner.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

When you say "do it right" I assume you mean ordnace specs are the right way. There are some who might take issue with that and would insist that in certain specific instances, such as the nose of the extractor, the original ordnance specs could be improved upon.

The idea with the nose of the extractor is to shape it in such a way that if a cartridge is fed ahead of the extractor, the extractor will snap over the rim of the chambered cartridge and the pistol will continue to function. I know some very highly respected 1911 'smiths who purposely shape the nose as a flat bevel with no ill effects and perfect functioning so perhaps there's more than one way to skin this species of cat.

I consider Bill Laughridge, the owner of Cylinder and Slide, to be knowledgeable and respected regarding the M1911 pistol.

About 6 years ago I began to notice that the extractors that are being used in all of the name brand 1911 pistols and the extractors that we were using would begin to lose their tension at around 1000 rounds and that by 3000 to 4000 rounds many of them had lost enough tension that they would begin to cause failures to extract or failures to eject because they were losing their grip on the case before it could be fully ejected.

Being a dinosaur in the 1911 business I knew that the Colt 45 ACP extractors were good for around 20,000 rounds before they would show wear on the extractor hook but they would still have their tension on the case.

I decided that I wanted to find out why the newer extractors were losing their tension. First I noticed that the nose profile of many of the extractors was incorrect. This was causing undue stress on the extractor if the extractor had to jump the rim of the case on slide close.
...
I have had the fortune to observe the feeding cycle of several 1911 pistols taken with high speed digital movie cameras. The rounds that actually feed out of the magazine don’t feed smoothly up the frame feed ramp and barrel throat. The bullet nose actually hits the feed ramp of the frame, bounces up and strikes the barrel feed throat and then bounces up against the top of the chamber, and then the cartridge chambers as the slide finishes closing. Now there are the rounds that are thrown out of the magazine by the inertia caused by the slide impacting the frame when it stops against the frame. The round is so heavy that the pistol actually moves to the rear so fast that the round stays where it is. This causes the round to be thrown out of the magazine, up the feed surfaces and into the chamber before the slide ever touches it. Now that the round is already chambered the extractor is forced to jump the rim of the case as the slide closes on the round. The extractors that have an incorrect nose shape are slammed back and to the right with extremely violent force.

Source: https://ezine.m1911.org/showthread.php?251-Cylinder-amp-Slide-Ultimate-1911-Extractor

 

[TunnelRat]

In all my years on this forum, I can't recall a thread that properly followed a style guide. This thread isn't for commercial use and it seems to me the use of these images would fall under fair use.

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[Steve in Allentown]

The slide should not be slamming on an empty chamber.

I completely agree except in this specific scenario. Allowing the slide to slam on an empty chamber a dozen times will not damage the mechanism. Doing so regularly like the Glock guys can eventually lead to premature wear particularly to a finely honed sear/hammer interface. It is considered poor weapon handling etiquette to treat a 1911 this way. But for setting up or diagnosing extractors it's an acceptable risk. In fact, I use an old beat up sear and hammer when I run this test.

Also the gouge in the extraction groove rear face is caused not by an out of tune extractor but an out of specs one

There is some question as to whether or not the ordnance specs will result in the extractor claw contacting the case. I would say that no matter what the specs are the fact is that today's extractors do not correctly fit todays commercially manufactured 1911s. This is why the extractors need some attention to function properly. Even the much admired Cylinder & Slide extractors are not perfect and need some attention to run right.

. . . the M1911 pistol functions correctly thank you with parts machined to specs and by rights does not need any tuning or enhancements

If all 1911 parts were manufactured and assembled by a single manufacturer then there would theoretically be no need for tuning or enhancments as long as their QC was good. However, the fact is there are a multitude of companies making 1911 parts and pistols using their own blueprints, tooling, and QC processes.

Why do Glocks, Berettas, XDs, S&Ws, etc, etc, have a reputation for running right out of the box while 1911s don't have the same reputation? It's becuase only Glock makes Glocks, only Springfield makes XDs, only Beretta makes Berettas, only Smith & Wesson makes S&Ws, etc etc. Everybody and his brother makes 1911s.

. . . all this bevelin' and polishin' appears to be an attempt to correct defects in a poor quality part.

It's more like an attempt to get well made parts to play well with one another.

Mr. Yam in his best form could not light a candle to Mr.Browning.

JMB is my hero. He and his crew did amazing work.

Uncle Sam issued me a 1911 almost 50 years ago that I carried and used for a decade in some pretty nasty conditions. It never failed to function except for the occassional tap-rack-bang but it was only accurate from the TC hatch to the front slope. It was not a bullseye pistol, rattled like rocks in a can, could be disassembled just by looking at it, and bit the web of my shooting hand.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

I consider Bill Laughridge, the owner of Cylinder and Slide, to be knowledgeable and respected regarding the M1911 pistol.

As do I.

Your quote of his has lots of good information. It's a wonder that the 1911 functions at all given the violence of its operation. Most people don't realize how the cartridges bounce around during the process.

The undue stress on the extractor due to a less than optimal nose profile leads to the obvious question of what is the correct nose profile? As you pointed out earlier, ordnace specs call or a rounded profile while we know that some current manufacturers use a flat profile. I'd very much like to see an analytical, head-to-head experiment measuring the forces involved with each profile.

Thanks for the link. I'll follow it to see what else Bill has to say.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Bill Laughridge and extractors

I just read everything at the link provided by Aguila Blanca. It is very informative and I recommend it to everyone. One section in the Bill Laughridge article that I'd like to point out is here:

Now let’s have a look at how the extractor is fitted in relationship to how it actually grips the cartridge. I have noted that most extractor hooks are too long. This causes the extractor hook face to contact the case in the relief angle above the rim of the case. This causes the cartridge to tip to the left with the cartridge base not being in full contact with the breech face. When the slide chambers the cartridge the cartridge is slammed straight with the chamber and the base of the cartridge is now fully contacting the breech face. All of this causes the extractor to be slammed to the right and back with great force. The face of the extractor hook gouges a notch in the case relief which also puts a great strain on the hook itself.

In summary and paraphrasing, one of the problems with extractors is they are too long from the firing pin slot to the hook. This is a major problem as it causes the extractor nose to pound into the case during every firing cycle. This shortens the extractor's life by putting undue stress on the extractor. It can also cause feeding problems. I do not interpret this to mean the profile of the extractor's nose needs to be rounded or flat. Rather it means the extractor's nose should not contact the case.


Another snippet from the article:

dimensions for the Ultimate Extractor were derived by “blending” the Ordnance dimensions with the modern Colt dimensions

I have a couple of Colts of recent manufacture and their OEM extractors were replaced because they were too long and in solid contact with the case relief angle referenced by Bill in his previous quote above. I'm not sure blending dimensions from two sources had the desired results. I know that several years ago I bought two of Bill's extractors and found that they were too long for the Springfield slides in which I put them. Perhaps he has modified his extractors since then and they may now not be too long. Certainly I agree that spring steel is what should be used to make 1911 extractors and the article fully explains why.

One thing that surprised me is that Bill didn't address extractor deflection at all.

The writer of the article, Harwood Loomis, wrote, "No wonder most replacement parts have to be fitted in most 1911s." This is exactly the point I was making in my earlier posts.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Thanks for all the great info.
I was about to buy and (try to) fit a Wilson extractor in my 9mm 1911.

Be careful. This was all about .45 ACP extractors.

The concept is the same in as much as you have to address geometry, deflection, and tension but the dimensions don't apply to the 9mm.

Additionally, there are two schools of thought on how a 9mm extractor should apply pressure against the case. One way is as shown by niemi24s in his drawing where the case rim is in contact with the extractor's tensioning wall. The other way is for the edge of the 9mm extractor claw to be in contact with the flat portion of the case between the rim and the bevel. It's more difficult to make the 9mm tensioning wall apply the pressure. It's easier to make the 9mm claw apply the pressure. Easier is not always better though.

 

[David R]

Thank you.

I have an Officers Model. 3.5" barrel. The last round was hitting me in the face. I did the test with the magazine out. All rounds fell down and went out the bottom of the magazine well. I tensioned the extracter too much first and it would not feed. I took some tension off and it worked fine. No more brass in the face. It also worked with no magazine.

Thank You
David

 

[Steve in Allentown]

I have an Officers Model. 3.5" barrel. The last round was hitting me in the face. I did the test with the magazine out. All rounds fell down and went out the bottom of the magazine well. I tensioned the extracter too much first and it would not feed. I took some tension off and it worked fine. No more brass in the face. It also worked with no magazine.

Some years ago after putting together a 9x23 I took it to the range and was amazed at how far the ejected cases flew. I just chalked it up to the power of the cartridge until one day when I stripped it for cleaning and the extractor just fell out of the slide. It had zero tension on it because I forgot that little chore during the build. Once I got that squared away the brass no longer ejected into low earth orbit.

Having hot brass making a line drive for your face is no fun. As you discovered this is caused by an extractor that loses control of the empty case during cycling. The empty case ends up getting smacked by the forward edge of the ejection port which bats the case straight back at the shooter.

The reason it was only the last round that was getting batted back at you is because all the previous empty cases were being pushed clear of the ejection port by the next round in the magazine as it popped up or they were supported by the next round enough that the extractor was able to drag them back to make contact with the ejector.



.

 

[David R]

I have a micro 9 that throws them 20 feet or more. It functions, so I have not messed with it. Figured slide speed was the reason.

David

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Extractor length

A follow-up to the Bill Laughridge article.

The problem of extractors that are too long can be addressed several ways.

• One way is to file the extractor nose so that it doesn't contact the case bevel. This works fine as long as not much material has to be removed. Removing material weakens the part.
  
  
• Another method is to simply buy extractors from various manufacturers and use the one that fits the best. In my experience EGW and Wilson make the shortest. I wish these two companies would make their extractors out of spring steel like Cylinder & Slide.
  EGW
  Wilson
  
  
• Another method is to install a spacer of the correct width into the extractor's firing pin stop slot then file the forward wall of the slot the correct amount to move the extractor hook closer to the breechface.
  
  
• The final method is to buy a Harrison extractor that is made with no firing pin stop slot and machine the slot yourself at the precise spot needed to achieve a perfect length.
  https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-240-bg
  https://shop.harrisoncustom.com/hd-803-extractor-machining-fixture

 

[polyphemus]

Thank you for your endorsements Steve,duly noted.
Normally I just file or stone the nose until there's clearance and move on,never broken one and I doubt I ever will for one thing I don't engage in expedient practices like loading rounds already chambered.
They are inexpensive and widely available even if I did.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I know that several years ago I bought two of Bill's extractors and found that they were too long for the Springfield slides in which I put them.

Impossible. The Ultimate Extractor wasn't introduced until first or second quarter of 2018. That article in the M1911.org magazine was its first exposure to the public.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

The Ultimate Extractor wasn't introduced until first or second quarter of 2018. That article in the M1911.org magazine was it's first exposure to the public.

Good to know. Perhaps I'll spend $40 to get one of these new ones to see how they compare to the unmodified EGW extractors I have on hand.

 

[HiBC]

I,for one,greatly appreciate Steve in Allentown's thread.

I believe it is a service to 1911 owners who are "hungry" for this info. Many folks may be better served by a good 1911 smith than DIY efforts,but in fact not everyone has access to a good 1911 smith.Most of the smiths that are skilled are between Boomer and Greatest Generation,which means we are losing them.

I find the information useful,and as easy to understand as it can be.IMO,being able to do extractor maintenance/replacement is a good skill for a 1911 shooter.

I fully expect there will always be different points of view.I'm happy to read discussion of alternative ideas.

I'm a bit disappointed by the confrontational tone of some posts. There are better ways to discuss as Gentlemen.

The style of Steves responses may serve well as a model

 

[Sevens]

I'm a bit disappointed by the confrontational tone of some posts. There are better ways to discuss as Gentlemen.

The style of Steves responses may serve well as a model

Hear hear!

I wish I could add to this, but you said it perfectly.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

I wanted to settle the question about obtaining permission from niemi24s to use his drawings in my posts so I dropped him a PM today. Below are the relevent portions of our interaction:

The other day I posted two of your drawings over on the Firing Line forum to help others who were having extractor related issues.

I would appreciate it if you would review the post I made that had your drawings and let me know if I have in any way offended you by using them. If I have inadvertantly stepped outside the bounds by posting them, please say so and I will immediately remove them.

Hi Steve:

No need to remove those images. All 450+ of my images are in a Public Folder on Photobucket and none have been copywrited by me (or anyone else I know of). The addition of the credit line attributing them to my username is perfectly adequate.

Cheers, Niemi24S

 

[TunnelRat]

Wow kudos to you for going that extra step.

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