How Fast Part II

[Sharkbite]

I think the issue with the above is simply one of differing perspectives.

The "claim" was that a student in one of these classes could "draw and fire" in such a short time. The Industry standard for "draw and fire" is not starting with the hand on the gun and the grip established.

So, without that disclaimer in th previous posts, claiming such a feat, alot of pepple (myself included) threw the BS flag.

I stand by that....if we are going to claim super human feats for a known skillset then we need to abide by that skill set quantification. OR a disclaimer should be made stating we are differing from the understood procedure

I bet i can beat that time by a considerable margin, if i start with a J frame in my coat pocket, pointed at the tgt and my finger on the trigger. But that is not what was inferred by the OP. "Draw and fire" has a established meaning.

SO, a unrealistic comparison to a know quantity lead to a claim that we all know was not humanly possible (at least at the skill/training level indicated).

Was she fast? YEP, good on her for the reflexes to get a hit in that timeframe.

Was that a true test of her "draw and fire" time? NOPE

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here's my comments on the Serpa issue in the video, posted elsewhere:

In one of the IDPA venues, that HCM and I shoot at, IIRC, there has been a Serpa ND into a leg. Personally, I witnessed a new shooter with a Serpa who could not release the gun smoothly. He was pressing and jerking it. Thus, the SO stopped him as he saw an ND coming. Next, a participant LEO who is a long time and excellent shooter had a new Serpa as he was testing it as it might or was adapted (I forget). He found the release difficult to master smoothly. He was not a fan of the holster. I doubt that many nondedicated users put in 3500 reps. However, as I point out below, reps might not be the cure for an affordance error, time pressure and associated incident stress.

Mike Webb, our match director and who has been director for the Nationals, and I were discussing it. He sees and I agree given the human factors of finger usage that the problem is that people don't do the smooth flat release and tend to hook the finger to press the lever. This is a natural occurrence given the way we use fingers to press buttons and also continues the natural motion to get the finger to the trigger. Gun design is such that the finger seeks the trigger. This is called an affordance (see Donald Norman - Design of Everyday Things) and leads to errors. They are terribly hard to train out of. Sliding the finger in a controlled environment as a TV shoot might make it easy. Under stress, you press with the finger tip and that tip heads right for the trigger. It is hard enough to keep fingers off the trigger with regular holsters or other retention systems. Putting the finger into a tension filled motion seems pragmatic. Even with lots of reps, we know that folks can circumvent muscle memory. Muscle memory must be correctly recalled (not consciously though) to be used. It's retrieval can be over ridden in stress.

Thus, to repeat myself, the discussion of 4 rules is really irrelevant to the problem. Pilots learn that they should not stall but they do and crash when the stress, systems and evaluation get out of sync.

PS - in the video, you can see the flat finger start to curl in as I said was the tendency. In fact, I might argue that using the finger to apply pressure might enhance this motion as compared to a regular draw where you don't get your finger in motion until you are on target.

We all like to say things are human errors. That is a contributor but if you know human factors, there can be contributors that 'training' alone cannot totally eliminate.

 

[K_Mac]

Sharkbite that you and others inferred that Kraig was claiming standard "draw and fire" time is clear. He was clear in the setup and did not imply that at all. Simply posting a time faster than achievable by standard measure does not imply anything deceitful.

 

[kraigwy]

Sharkbite:

Maybe I can explain, I almost hate to, you can see why from some of the post.

As I said earlier, this course is not a shooting course per se but a self defense course. This topic only dealt with a tiny aspect of the class. I brought it up in the HOW FAST subject in the earlier post.

But to address the "hand on the gun" aspect. We all discuss (or should) situation awareness. Examples being suspicious persons approaching you at an ATM, or gas station while pumping gas. One has to be aware, and ready, without brandishing. So I teach to carry concealed in such a manner that one can have his hand on his/her gun, and be instantly ready to produce a weapon OR empty hands, depending on the situation.

As you can see from the video, the lady starts with the hand resting on the gun, both of which are covered by her jacket.

I do the same thing except I pocket carry with my hand in my pocket as mentioned in the other post.

Though she, or anyone else, can become extremely fast, I think interject scenarios that slow them down tremendously. Simply done but interjection Shot-No Shoot situations.

As an example, lets use active shooter situations. As with most, I go by the FLEE, HIDE (HUNKER DOWN) AND FIGHT, reactions. (preference in that order).

While hunkered down, the student is ready to fire when the suspect pops around the or instantly produce empty hands if its a first responder pops around the corner. I feel its just, if not more important to produce empty hands as it is to produce a firearm.

A training session I use here is to have one person facing his/her target, pointing the gun ready to fire. A second person also faces his/her target with his hands in his pocket. When the pointer sees the 2nd person start to draw he fires. BUT, the second person has and will produce either a gun (plastic blue gun) OR a cell phone from their pocket.

This does slow down the fast draw quite a bit.

I provided the video NOT to say this is all that's taught, but to develop a skill and learn how to best carry concealed.

This class goes all winter, (Oct-May) we're just talking about a tiny section of the course.

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K-mac: Thanks for the positive feed back.

You are correct, I don't charge for this training, plus I provide most of the ammo used. Most of these women are low income and would not be able to afford paying for even moderately prices SD Firearm Classes.

Also Correct again, I do get a lot of home made cookies. But in addition, the NRA (who provided grants to build most of our range comlex) and the City who leases the property to us for $1 a year, like the feed back obtained regarding our club's service to the community.

We also make our range available to local LE, 4-H shooting sports, Apple Seed, Jr Rodeo and others.

Few small communities have not only the our outdoor range and traps houses, but our indoor range. And at low cost, you get unlimited use of all the ranges for a club membership fee of $25 per year.

 

[9x45]

Kraig, you shoot USPSA/IDPA/ICORE/Steel Challenge and 3 gun? Ok, post some scores and videos. Again, your video of the lady newbie does not show hand position, and it appears she activates the clock, not the RO, what kind of deal is that? And everyone knows when the low battery light comes on, the results are bogus. Let's see some clear videos with the RO holding the clock.

Better yet, to settle this once and for all, with your creds, what's your USPSA member number, than all of the USPSA shooters can see that you are for real.

 

[WyMark]

Kraig your resume is impressive, as anyone who has been around this site for any length of time would know if they paid any attention. Thank you for your service to your country and community. I always wonder why instead of offering constructive criticism, some feel the need to question and condemn. You are not selling anything, and my guess is you spend more than you make on your class, cookies and such notwithstanding. I don't know you at all l, but your motivation seems to be honorable. I have far more respect for that than those who tell us how good they are for no other apparent reason than ego.

I agree with this 100%. This thread went wrong back on page one, and it seems that once someone posts a negative comment the trolls jump in too. "Unfortunate" sums it up nicely.

Kraig, please keep on doing what you do, and if I can get up your way I'll be proud to buy you a beer/soda/coffee/whatever you like. Thanks

 

[WyMark]

Better yet, to settle this once and for all, with your creds, what's your USPSA member number, than all of the USPSA shooters can see that you are for real.

You're a troll.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

You're grasping at some very small straws there, 9.

You can CLEARLY see her non-shooting hand behind her back at the beginning of the video. Given the angle of the hand and distance from her of the person holding the timer after the shot, and the near complete lack of movement from her, it is quite obvious that it wasn't her activating the timer.

Second, an analysis of the video shows that the shot was fired at 0.366666 seconds.

You can argue the safety aspects all day long but you can not reasonably argue that what kraigwy is saying happened, didn't happen. You can see it and hear it right there in front of you. It's on video, with audio. It did happen and the reported (and indicated) time is correct. Arguing it is nonsensical.

 

[K_Mac]

I will add one more comment. I don't know what your issues are 9x45. You may be as good as you think you are. That seems unlikely, but it really doesn't make a bit of difference. What is clear is that your arrogant, condescending, and aggressive approach adds nothing to the conversation. Attacking someone else does not make you look better, and it doesn't represent the sport you seem to care about very well. Lighten up.

 

[9x45]

Wy and Brian, how much experience do either of you have as an NROI certifed RO in a sanctioned USPSA match? Are either of you certified? I'll bet neither of you shoot any sanctioned competition, ever. The posted video may fool a bunch of newbie wanna bee's, but it doesn't fool anyone who shoots competition for real. No, you are not. Look it up. She asks? do I push the button? yes, push the button, who said that? When the battery warning comes on for any timer, the results are bogus, not realistic, especially at an indoor range. At any USPSA Level I or IDPA or Steel Challenge or 3 gun, when the battery warning flashes, you get a re-shoot because the numbers don't mean anything.

Brian, why don't you post a video of you running a sub .4 second first shot from any start position. There are only a few shooters here who actually shoot competitive matches on a regular basis, and you are not one of them. If you were, you'd know that a sub .4 is not possible, not even for the Grand Masters.. But prove it to yourself, just show up at your nearest USPSA or IDPA and kick their butt.... Of, by the way, what's your USPSA or IDPA or Steel Challenge member number? Don't have one, do you...

 

[9x45]

KMac, do you shoot any sanctioned competition or do you just talk like you do?
Big difference.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Uh huh.

I'm done here. You're ignoring reality. The sky isn't blue. The sun isn't hot. The Hindenburg didn't crash. Your own eyes and ears mean nothing.

What I can do or not do or who can do what or what you think you know is irrelevant. You can see it with your own eyes and hear it with your own ears.

The woman DID do what is claimed. Could she repeat it? Who KNOWS! Nobody does. Maybe she tried it 17 times and that was the only time she was under 2 seconds. How do I know? Maybe she actually reacted early and got lucky?

Keep telling us that we don't see and hear what's right there before our eyes and we can analyze with a computer. Your credibility is skyrocketing.

 

[K_Mac]

9x45 I do not have any experience in sanctioned shooting competition and have never attended any of the well known training programs. I do take self-defense very seriously and don't give a rip if my lack of credentials bothers you. It certainly doesn't reduce my cognitive abilities. I have read Kraig's post and viewed his video several times. He never claims that the women in the video does anything other than what is shown. You may be an elite shooter, but there seems to be an inability to understand the time clearly shown in this video has nothing to do with a sanctioned competition.

 

[kraigwy]

9X45

I have a better idea, how about you just ignore my post.

I owe you nothing. You don't sign my pension checks, so I really don't care.

 

[JohnKSa]

• Fingers on triggers when they shouldn't be.
• Timers with low batteries.
• People who don't believe video proof demanding more video proof.
• Peeing contests.
• Holsters that "help" people put their finger in the wrong place.

What a great thread...to close right now.