How Fast Part II

[JohnKSa]

I don't believe for even a half second that a new to handguns anybody can do anywhere near that time and it's never been clearly documented anywhere else in the competitive shooting/training world. Especially for anybody over 25 years of age, not to mention 40 plus, because reflexes start to slow at age 19. Even Jerry Miculek, Jethro "The Jet" Dionisio, Taran Butler and Bob Vogel can't do that. And they are world champion shooters.

Comparing apples to oranges.

You do realize that the shooter in kraigwy's video was already holding the gun when the buzzer went off, right?

The video shows someone starting from a "modified ready position" (gun already in the hand but not pointed at the target) and hitting a torso-sized target at 3 paces from the buzzer. All they had to do is get the gun more or less pointed at the target (a large, close target, for that matter) and pull the trigger. The hit was only a C-Zone hit, so they're not even restricted to making A-Zone hits.

That's tremendously different than starting with the hands away from the gun, beginning to move them to the holstered gun at the buzzer, acquiring a grip, drawing the gun from the holster, bringing the other hand to the gun, aiming the gun and firing the shot.

Everything in blue in the sentence above is NOT done by the shooter in kraigwy's video but IS done by the shooters in the videos you posted.

The bigger issue, as pax points out, is that the shooter is obviously distracted after the shot and kept her finger on the trigger after she was done shooting.

 

[rpseraph]

starting with the hands away from the gun, beginning to move them to the holstered gun at the buzzer, acquiring a grip, drawing the gun from the holster, bringing the other hand to the gun, aiming the gun and firing the shot.

This is also how I was trained in the classes I've taken and it is how I practice. I haven't gotten a shot timer yet, but that would be an interesting thing to track. My primary concern is being able to draw from concealed and get rounds on target in a smooth action.

 

[kraigwy]

Didn't mean to start all the fuss. I thought the original topic was speed, but we've moved to judging a whole 80 plus hour class on a <40 second video.

To be truthful the first hours the students don't even touch the gun.

Yes some get fast but that slows down quite a bit when Shoot-No Shoot targets are involved.

And yes maybe the lady was confused after firing one round, but that's understandable when she's been told for hours to fire two shoots every time she shoots.

The video isn't the class. I've posted other videos in the past, that shows another small segment but again not the whole class.

Here is another we can find fault with.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/pentest/Serpa and Beretta 92FS.AVI

Anyone is free to visit the class if they wish to see more then 40 seconds.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Safety issues aside, arguing about whether or not something that's on video and audio did or did not happen is just, well, there's lot of words...

A 2 minute process of importing the video into an editor and watching/listening frame by frame proves exactly how fast the shot was.

The first hint of a sound from the timer occurs at 16 seconds, 12 frames. The first hint of the shot occurs at 16 seconds, 23 frames. The video is recorded at 30 frames per second. 23 frames minus 12 frames is 11 frames. 11divided by 30 is....

0.3666666

30 fps is not fast enough to get an exact time but it's plenty close enough to prove that it's really darn close to 0.39 seconds.

 

[K_Mac]

Kraig I would like to see more but your link doesn't open for me.

You know that anything posted on the interweb is subject to question, review and ridicule! That isn't all bad. The woman's confusion and failure to remove her finger from the trigger and come back to ready at the end of the exercise can be a great teaching tool. It illustrates clearly that when under stress even fundamental safety practices can be compromised unless proper focus is maintained.

I'd love to come hang out with you and the girls, but I am afraid my finances and wife won't allow it! Keep up the good work.

 

[kraigwy]

K-Mac

I don't know about viewing the video, it works sometimes. But I don't know how to get it to working. I had to find someone who knows more then me about computers to even get in on the net.

But you're not missing much, it was one I made showing the Serpa holster is not inherently un-safe.

It shows if used the way its suppose to be used, the trigger finger slides along the holster and falls under the slide where its suppose to be, to allow for the finger not going into the trigger guard and allows one to easier Point Shoot.

But thanks for the comments. I don't pay a lot of attention to criticism on the internet.

 

[shafter]

Nice video. The lesson I see in the clip is the gun doesn't have to be pointed at you to be a threat. In fact, most of us could have our gun trained on her and still be shot by her before we could react. She isn't special, it's just that action beats reaction.

Before we crucify her for not taking her finger off the trigger keep in mind that the gun was still pointed in a safe direction. Not ideal, but hardly reckless.

 

[Branko]

Actually, neurologically speaking, reaction is faster then intentional action. Once you processed the threat, reaction gets limbs moving faster. The problem is that time required to process the threat can eat away the advantage.

When using a buzzer you're exploiting a mechanism which isn't there where you are initiating the action yourself without a "go" signal.

 

[9x45]

Beretta 92 and an OWB Serpa, whats with the suspenders and flimsy leather belt? Maybe a live fire demo of that, course I have seen shooters pull the holster and belt up trying to draw with a rig like that. By the way, Serpa holsters have been banned from a number of well known gun fighting schools because the shooter wants to unlock it with the trigger finger, despite what Todd Jarret tells them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6QLym229h4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_W...7oTxOcxMmq4oxegMqIbi_cyz2s2m27GhM6URWcpnjB2Pw

 

[kraigwy]

By the way, Serpa holsters have been banned from a number of well known gun fighting schools because the shooter wants to unlock it with the trigger finger

I'd be more inclined to ban shooters who blame equipment for their failings.

The Serpa was designed to slide your finger over the release button, which would allow the trigger finger to fall along the slide of a pistol, or under the cylinder of a revolver.

The problem is jabbing the button with your trigger finger which causes the finger to hit the trigger as the gun clears the holster.

That is not the Serpa's fault, that's the idiot poking the button.

But I agree, its better to discuss the old fat man then the subject of safely drawing the gun from the Serpa holster.

But the old fat man likes to use the Blue Plastic Training guns for safe demonstrations when no shooting is involve. Never had one of those go off accidently or on purpose.

 

[9x45]

kraig, fist of all, the Serpa paddle is to be inside your pants, and over the belt, not between the belt and your pants. The first thing any new student should ask? Is do you have even event liability insurance? It's a policy that protects the range owners, club officers, range officers, and students. Next thing is you do is provide them a copy of that policy. 2nd, what are your credentials? Have you been thru GunSite, ThunderRanch, DR Middlebrooks? Taken classes from Mass, Hackethorn, Vickers? Are you active duty LEO/retired? Can you share your shooting incidents? On/off duty? Criminal/civil court? Do you currently have a valid CCW permit? Are you actively involved in a sanctioned competition, USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/3 gun? If not, pass.

I have been in this game for over 45 years, and I don't teach "FlicknClick"

Where did that bullet go? If your student is dragged into civil court, are you prepared to defend them based on your creds?

 

[pax]

Here's a short video clip from a recent episode of Guns & Ammo television, where the hosts say that anyone who claims the Serpa holster is unsafe are either "not able to internalize keeping their finger straight and off if the trigger" or "don't understand the four safety rules". Sounded kind of like kraigwy just did, in fact.

Interestingly, here is a slo-mo image of one of the participants on that show (Pat Sweeney) as he draws from the Serpa holster to show how safely and easily the holster can be used. He had no idea his finger had gone to the trigger, and the episode aired at full speed. A sharp eyed observer saw what had happened and slowed the speed down so we could all see it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXakcPB0evk

This isn't some untrained or half-trained Johnny-Come-Lately; it's Patrick Sweeney, who has spent his entire adult life making a living behind the gun: shooting, learning, teaching, gunsmithing, and writing. I'd lay money on the table to say that this man has had more hours of formal training, and more hours behind the gun, than 98% of the posters on this forum.

Given the lifetime of safe gunhandling Patrick Sweeney has under his belt, to say that what he did with his Serpa is "just a training issue" is to say that nobody can get enough training to use the product safely.

pax

PS There's also this excellent post from well-known, reputable professional trainer Chuck Haggard. It summarizes other issues with the Serpa quite well.

 

[pax]

Oh, one more thing about the slo-mo video ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXakcPB0evk ) -- when someone says they've used the Serpa for a long time and have "never had an issue" with it, this video is a fairly excellent way to point out that they may not know if they've had an issue.

If it weren't caught on camera like this, Patrick Sweeney still would not know he'd had an issue with the Serpa. He thought everything was fine and that he'd never had a problem with it.

pax

 

[9x45]

Patrick is well known in the sanctioned competition shooting world since the early 80's of IPSC. Having his finger on the trigger during the draw is know as "Prep" All competitive shooters do that, it's just getting ready to pop a cap. Not the same as newbies..... But the Serpa still sucks, notice how far it is pulling up, even with proper position and a Wilderness Tactical Original Instructors Belt,.

And observe, after the draw, he slaps the sht out of the trigger, it's not breahte and squeeze, its grip it and rip it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ2...RG7lx3jQdTiApPTCFtK1UIE0qqhnjbFHecSEQmPNEV2XQ

 

[Sharkbite]

But the Serpa still sucks, notice how far it is pulling up, even with proper position and a Wilderness Tactical Original Instructors Belt,.

He has the wrong size belt and/or the holster is improperly adjusted. The Serpa allows to adjust for the belt width you are using. That clearly was not done here

Ive run Serpa holsters since they came out. Overseas and Stateside, belt mounted (concealed and exposed), thigh rig (with and without a light attached and a chest mounted one on my PPE while driving high profile motorcades.

All of these have been with a Glock pistol. The release button is located over the top part of the frame, not the trigger. You HAVE to curl your finger downward to engage the trigger AFTER depressing the lever and starting the draw

NO OTHER WAY to do it. The shooter MUST physically move their finger to the trigger. If the finger is left in the spot the release lever puts it during the draw the finger ends up EXACTLY where it should. Along the Frame, right over the takedown lever

I cant speak to other makes of guns, ive only used it with a Glock. With that pistol it is ABSOLUTLY shooter error that results in ND's.

As to the claim that debris can "jam" the release lever.....Yep, that can happen if rolling around in mud and sand. I never worried about that in almost 8 years of constant deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. YMMV

 

[pax]

For context, here's the full segment.
https://youtu.be/LJ2Qg4xwHgg

He is prepping the trigger, but he is not prepping the trigger during the early part of the draw stroke. You can see him go on the trigger, then come off the trigger, then go back on the trigger as he drives the gun out to the target.

Going on the trigger as he's driving the gun out to the target is prepping the trigger. Going on the trigger inadvertently as the gun comes out of the holster is a screw up.

Here is an excellent breakdown of the video by my colleague Karl Rehn.

http://blog.krtraining.com/?p=152

pax

 

[kraigwy]

9X45

kraig, fist of all, the Serpa paddle is to be inside your pants, and over the belt, not between the belt and your pants.

I slipped the Serpa over the belt for the video only. I don't normally use Serpa except in match where I use the Beretta. Even then I use it with a belt and not in my pants. I often sign up for two guns requiring two different holsters. None go in my pants.

I'll say it again, its a poor man who blames his equipment for his failure.
It isn't the holster that has problems its the idiot using it.

The first thing any new student should ask? Is do you have even event liability insurance? It's a policy that protects the range owners, club officers, range officers, and students. Next thing is you do is provide them a copy of that policy.

The club does have insurance, covering all involved. Its a requirement from the City who lease us the land the range is on.

2nd, what are your credentials? Have you been thru GunSite, ThunderRanch, DR Middlebrooks? Taken classes from Mass, Hackethorn, Vickers?

Nope, none of those people. FBI LE Firearms Instructor Course, NRA LE Rifle Instructor Course, USAMU Sniper School. FBI Instructors Development Course (requirement for Alaska Police Standard Council's) LE Instructor's Cert.
NG-MTU Coaches clinic, CMP Master Instructors course.

Are you active duty LEO/retired? Can you share your shooting incidents? On/off duty? Criminal/civil court? Do you currently have a valid CCW permit? Are you actively involved in a sanctioned competition, USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge/3 gun?

Retired 20 year Anchorage Police Dept. Retired 25 years USA/NG.
Including Combat Infantryman, RVN 2/502 IN. 101st Abn Unit 67-68, my shooting incidents is not going to be discussed.

Coached rifle and combat pistol teams for the Alaska NG. Entered the AKNG with the 38th SF company as the light weapons sgt. Ending commanding the AK NG Marksmanship program, to include responsible for the Marksmanship Training and Unit Weapons qualifications. Plus, and just as important, the administration and logistic aspects of conducting matches, and supply.

As to court, I was (probably not current) certified by the State of Alaska, Third Jud. district as an expert in Firearms Investigation and Hazardous Devices (Bomb Disposal).

As to CCW I carry per the LEOSA.

Taught Sniper Schools Civilian Police and Military. Was the original instructor when APD first started their SWAT program (they call it CERT).

Shot formal competition since 1977, High Power, Bullseye Pistol, Combat Pistol for the Guard, now provide HP Clinics and CMP GSM Clinics. Currently I compete every other weekend (Mar-Oct) in various pistol matches, USPSA, ICORE, Steel and Pins, 3 Gun and others, depend on they are shooting on a given weekend. Also still shoot CMP Games, HP and Precision Rifle.

Sorry, I'm not a bit ashamed of my qualifications.
Am I perfect, hell no, but I've been taught by some of the Best, The USAMU, All Guard Coaches and my favorite, Gary Anderson, Olympic Champion setting records in the late 60s that have never been broken.

You're gonna have to find someone else to beat up on.

 

[kraigwy]

Having his finger on the trigger during the draw is know as "Prep" All competitive shooters do that, it's just getting ready to pop a cap. Not the same as newbies.....

I shoot every other weekend in Spearfish SD (during the season Mar-Oct. )

What you call "PREP" the call "disqualification". If your finger is on the trigger during the draw, or moving between targets, your finished for the day.

 

[Pond James Pond]

Impressive.

There may be some issues around handling, but way back when the gauntlet was thrown down the claim had been drawing and shooting in about 0.5s, IIRR.

Demands of proof by video were made and they've been met. Works for me.... Not for others. Now we have more demands for this or that holster etc, etc... Qualifications and the rest are all very well and good, but the claim was to shoot is "X" msecs and it happened. Qualifications or lack there.

Even without a timer that is clearly well under a second and calculations based on video editing programs counting frames support this.

If I had been saying "Can't be done! Nonsense!", then this is the time when I'd be saying "I stand corrected. Well done." instead....

 

[K_Mac]

Kraig your resume is impressive, as anyone who has been around this site for any length of time would know if they paid any attention. Thank you for your service to your country and community. I always wonder why instead of offering constructive criticism, some feel the need to question and condemn. You are not selling anything, and my guess is you spend more than you make on your class, cookies and such notwithstanding. I don't know you at all l, but your motivation seems to be honorable. I have far more respect for that than those who tell us how good they are for no other apparent reason than ego.