Hornady new primer tube filler finally available

[Real Gun]

One of the gripes about having to stop and fix a priming problem on the progressive is the possibility of having to empty the primer tube and pick them up all over again. I know a clever way to keep the primers in the tube while removing it, but if a primer jams the end sideways, you have to dump the whole tube. I expect this new gadget would make recovering fast and easy, relieving the despair one feels when having to dump the primers and pick them over again. The new tool helps to avoid some of the aggravation that can occur in keeping a press running well.

That's not to say that priming problems should be normal, but I continually find that those who complain, or have stopped priming on the press entirely, don't have the latest generation parts from the manufacturer. My Hornady LnL AP, for example, has a improved primer punch and slide available.

 

[Vance]

Some also fail to keep their priming system clean. Dirt will cause problems you don't realize. I clean my press after each caliber session. Doesn't take long to de either.

I have deprimed my brass to wet stainless steel pin tumble clean it and I still primed on the press. Works great.

 

[Unclenick]

Failure to keep the actual primer feed mechanism clean has lead to primer stack ignition. Search for past threads on primers going off inside a Dillon press or feed tube to see some photos of what that does. Primers with lacquer sealant are going to be less prone to depositing explosive dust than those which do not have it.

Decapping before cleaning is something I do on my old Lee Challenger press with Lee's universal decapping die. It is quick and in no way interferes with subsequent progressive loading. The main advantage is just not having primer residue dust spread around and under the progressive press's shell plate. It makes keeping things clean and running smoothly easier to do. Not a requirement, but an option.

In various jobs over the years I've seen a number of vibratory-based sorting and counting and filling mechanisms. I'm guessing that with a 3D printer, you could come up with more variations on the theme. Imagine being able to put 1000 primers in a machine at once and have 10 tubes fill simultaneously and never have to touch a primer. That you might have to let it run for fifteen or twenty minutes wouldn't much matter then. But it would have to take randomly placed primers and turn them and funnel them into place reliably. I think it's doable. Whether it is doable at a reasonable price or not, is something I hesitate to speculate on.

 

[GWS]

The longer I read this thread the more sure I am that RCBS screwed up twice. Once in not properly marketing the APS primer strip system, and twice for not taking it to the next step by improving upon what they had. Instead they buckled, to the glee of Dillon who would rather replace blown up press parts and convince their customers that that (no fault?) policy makes them great, rather than inventing a better, faster, safer primer system of their own.

A new vibrator that can load 10 tubes of 100 at a time? Wonderful. Ten pipe bombs to store. Why not store 20 loaded tubes?

The nice thing about what I load with is that I have that many, 2000 primers, safely in boxes like you probably do, but they are already preloaded into strips ...none touching....so when I open a box I can load right now, continuous, no pecking or vibrating required. No refilling either. The strips are perpetually snapped together between a thumb and finger and they come apart on their own and empties stack behind the press.

Search for past threads on primers going off inside a Dillon press or feed tube to see some photos of what that does

Its getting harder to find those....they are disappearing....but I saved two for you:

The hole in the ceiling/destroy your eardrums trick.

Don't assume that picking up a tube is always safe.

There was another really recent (last spring) example on TheHighRoad.Org. It went from page one "Tacked" to archives. That one was a 450 to 550 conversion. Nasty hand wounds again. Surgery required. Ahh, just found it....here's the Link.

As Mad Magazine used to say, "What.......Me Worry?" All it takes is a mistake...usually caused by inattention or a maintenance oversight, or a worn out part. I'm perfectly capable of duplicating such a mistake, yup human......that's a big reason I opted for a safer system. Now that system's days are numbered. A year, maybe 2. A shame, IMO.

 

[jmorris]

Well, I have to admit never seeing that one. How in the world did he light off a primer pickup tube and how in the world did it shoot up into the ceiling with all the primers going off would have forced it in the opposite direction?

 

[Unclenick]

The general theory offered so far is that primer mix dust escapes the primer cups and contaminates the inner surfaces of the pick-up tubes or the feed tube inside the shield and goes off and start a chain reaction. In that instance a primer near the bottom of the tube would have fired first, expelling any below it, with the ones above it going off in a subsequent chain reaction from the bottom to the top. Like bottle rocket fuel that burns from the bottom first, it would launch the tube skyward while the others were still going off.

I don't know, for a fact, that the theoretical explanation is correct. Richard Lee says that if you visit any commercial loading operation where tube feeding is used, you find the ceiling peppered with indentations from primers that launched upward. Lack of taking time to clean the equipment frequently enough is usually blamed. Lee is against all tube-fed priming systems for this reason, equating them to bomb handling. No question that primers in a stack are more vulnerable to sympathetic ignition than in any other arrangement. But even in trays, Lee was able to get Federal primers to go off sympathetically, which is why he is against using them in his tray-fed equipment.

At any rate, until anyone knows otherwise, I suggest owning a 0.177 cal pellet gun cleaning rod and running a patch wet with alcohol down the tubes after every 1000 primers or so go through one. Same with the feed tube inside the explosion shield of a Dillon. The jury is out on whether or not it helps to rub a little powdered graphite into the tube to discourage primers from catching inside them.

A new vibrator that can load 10 tubes of 100 at a time? Wonderful. Ten pipe bombs to store. Why not store 20 loaded tubes?

Obviously, keeping it safe would be part of the design challenge. Separate explosion shields, etc. It's also a case of, just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should. But I'd be surprised if small commercial loading operations wouldn't be interested in such a thing, as they'd use the filled tubes about as fast as they were filled.

I have no clue how primers are handled in high speed large volume reloading equipment. I've seen companies offer equipment for sale that can load 5 rounds a second. I'd be interested to take a peak at what they do. I've seen vibratory gear that actually lifts small tablet-sized things up and across a line, kind of like Lee's tray feeds upside down. It might be another approach to take. Then no primer stack exists, per se. But I'd still want an explosion shield over it.

 

[jmorris]

At any rate, until anyone knows otherwise, I suggest owning a 0.177 cal pellet gun cleaning rod and running a patch wet with alcohol down the tubes after every 1000 primers or so go through one. Same with the feed tube inside the explosion shield of a Dillon. The jury is out on whether or not it helps to rub a little powdered graphite into the tube to discourage primers from catching inside them.

Interesting, I have many Dillon machines some are 30 years old and I have never ran anything except primers and compressed air down the tubes.

I have no clue how primers are handled in high speed large volume reloading equipment. I've seen companies offer equipment for sale that can load 5 rounds a second.

The ones I have seen are tiny vibratory bowl feeders, not unlike Dillon's primer tube filler.

 

[GWS]

The high speed equipment I would like to see is Federals! They are the ones with the most sensitive primers! If they can do that at 5 rounds a second with their primers........

I used to think that Federal primers and Dillon Presses shouldn't mix, but then people started blowing things up with CCI's and Winchesters too.

And Federals primers are still the most popular among competition folks inspite of (or because of) the extra sensitivity.

This isn't really a question that the Dillon systems don't work.....they do and most of the time very well. It's more a question of whether tubes shields, the Dillon, RCBS, Hornady bandaids, are enough to keep ordinary human's from getting hurt.

Sort of like the recent study result of why the commercial space plane blew up. The copilot (who isn't here to defend himself) supposedly opened flaps that weren't supposed to be opened at high speed. The study faulted the builders of the plane, that they didn't have systems built-in to prevent him from doing that at high speed.

None of us are perfect, and except for Unclenick and Jmorris most of us aren't engineers either. So maybe Dillon, RCBS, Hornady, etc. ought to pool such talent together and create a safer, dummie proof, or at least "fatigued-user" proof primer system that doesn't mangle hands or worse.

APS isn't perfect, but it is wonderfully safe. Yet APS is proof that one manufacturer can't do it alone, because the rest ignore and ridicule it, not to mention the one who built the system alone is inclined to hoard the technology and help cause the ignoring and ridiculing.......I believe that lays the fault everywhere.....except I would also include those in the hobby who perpetuate the same, even though they are without personal experience using the maligned system, in the name of brand loyalty, tradition or "it never happened to me" mentality.

The loader who posted this spring has bought a turret and a hand primer.....he's done with tubes. Shame, really, shouldn't have happened.

Reloading is pretty safe. Granted, we can't fix the stupid in any of us, if we choose to remain ignorant and do stupid things. (reminded of the guy who stores loose primers in Mason jars, or the beginner who simply filled his cases to the top with smokeless powder with no clue that that such was at least a double charge.) That said, we all get tired, or complacent or distracted. We don't always stop at that point, even though we should.

But we can make priming safer....RCBS proved it, then ignored what they learned because it didn't light the reloading world on fire, and give them the progressive market.........now they will try 7 stations with pipe bombs holding 100 primers together in a tube.....again.

I expect we will share the first disaster photos posted on the forums resulting from this combination.....about time we see a green primer disaster photo for once.

BTW, jmorris, Unclenick explained the popular theory of why that tube is in the ceiling.....first paragraph in his post. Correction: That picture was from a Hornady AP accident....not Dillon as I previously thought. The clue shoulda been the Hornady Lube in the picture, hah!

 

[jmorris]

safer, dummie proof, or at least "fatigued-user" proof primer system that doesn't mangle hands or worse.

The photo you posted with the blown up pickup tube could only be prevented with Something like Dillon's primer tube filler. I have never seen any other shielded primer fill tubes.

 

[schmellba99]

I still have never seen the APS primers ever on a store shelf.

And I'm not 100% convinced that the issues with priming tubes are not almost wholly related to how the user chose to handle their equipment. The overwhelming majority of accidents are generally traced back to improper use, lack of basic safety and equipment maintenance.

 

[GWS]

No, and you never will. Thanks to the original & continuing non-existent RCBS marketing. But it is worthwhile, if you use APS, to order by the case from Grafs, Midway, etc., so the hazmat doesn't affect.......the good part is it's safe to store that much. That'd be like loading that many tubes and storing them ready to load....we all know that's not so smart a thing to do.

overwhelming majority...

Nope you're wrong , issues with priming tubes is 100% related to handling, maintenance, and other human factors, like bad judgement. We are not machines. Most of us are pretty darn good at basic safety, equip. maintenance, and proper use.........until a brain fart happens due to a distraction or fatigue or we run into something new and unusual where a judgment is required. That's why Murphy's Law applies......if it's possible.... With APS it's not....possible. But it's still smart to wear safety glasses and ear plugs even using that.

Personally I'm near perfect about the glasses.....not so much on the ear plugs. If I used tubes I would be better. Wonder if they make Kevlar gloves.

My soap box isn't so much APS, but that reloaders ought to demand a safer primer system for us less than perfect humans. Across brands.....brands has nothing to do with it.....especially NOW. (RCBS is no longer interested in being the safety champion....it wasn't profitable, obviously.)

jmorris: ....assuming you use a Dillon vibrating tube filler and probably know......is it 100% at getting them in the tubes rightside up and not sideways or upside down? Just asking.....never used one. The cheaper incarnations aren't 100% according to user reports I've read.

BTW, lest anyone think this is just a Dillon problem, read this very interesting thread where a Hornady LnL AP caught fire!......yes the tube exploded. First fire I've heard about......Murphy did it? And yes it was operator error combined with a design that didn't see Murphy coming.

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=244584

Perhaps we need to create a reloader's safety association to make some teeth. Soap box over. Sorry for the highjack....maybe I'm the only one concerned.

 

[Vance]

My Dillon primer tube filler fills the tubes all in the correct orientation 99% of the time. But compared to the 2 FA units I tried, it never misses.

 

[Unclenick]

Jmorris,

Vibrating bowl and helical ramp approach? That's one I've seen used for everything from thermistors to medications to trimmer potentiometers. I imagine a high speed system would use a camera to detect upside down primers and kick them back into the bowl.

 

[jmorris]

Yes, wouldn't need a camera just simple mechanical "detectors" will allow you to do a lot.


Kind of like this brass sorter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU9gcI0n2EM

Doing a lot more than the simple RF 100. I had issues with some primers (don't remember what brand now) on my Dillon before I converted mine to adjustable speed. It runs 100% now but fills pretty slow, I can load 50 rounds or so before it finishes filling the tube.

The little unit would never keep up with 18,000/hr but even at $300, it would have been worth it for the fellow in the photos, just for the blast shield.

 

[schmellba99]

BTW, lest anyone think this is just a Dillon problem, read this very interesting thread where a Hornady LnL AP caught fire!......yes the tube exploded. First fire I've heard about......Murphy did it? And yes it was operator error combined with a design that didn't see Murphy coming.

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=244584

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the guy in your link said happened.

And I will wager a lot of money that there is a lot more to the story, even if the OP doesn't realize it.

While the tubes are not a perfect system (there is no such thing, even the APS you laud so much), the incident rate is statistically small enough to be considered less than a rounding error, and of those incidents - as you stated - it's 100% on the user (I wouldn't make such a bold statement personally as there is sometimes just flat out material issues, though rare they may be). You cannot engineer the human error out of something. I would guarantee you that if the APS system were as popular as the tube style systems implemented by Dillon, Hornady and the new RCBS units - you'll find issues with them as well. Statistics dictate that the more use a system has, the higher propensity there is for a problem to occur.

Keep your equipment clean, pay attention to what you are doing, don't get in a rut/space out (biggest issue with progressive style presses) and you eliminate the propensity for problems outside of force majeure.

 

[GWS]

Sigh.....I get more and more unpopular every time this subject comes up. But if it prevents one bad accident it's worth it.

I wouldn't make such a bold statement personally

and yet you added some boldness to mine.

the incident rate is statistically small enough to be considered less than a rounding error, and of those incidents - as you stated - it's 100% on the user

less than a rounding error?....that is bold. My guess is that for every case reported there are more unreported. That's human nature IME....lots of people's pride get in the way of reporting their own dumb mistakes. My 100% boldness was just based on all the reports I've read on 6 gun forums. Each one was traced back to less than perfect judgement, in handling or maintenance. Handling? That includes the unwise use of force.

As for APS there have been reports of such humanness....most lit up one primer. One guy (I have a brother in law of his mindset) who admitted that he wouldn't take no for an answer and kept trying to push a primer into a crimped .223 pocket. The result was the worst APS accident reported. I'll search for a picture. 3 or 4 primers . Looking......

I found Dustin Ellermann's picture and story......he came out better.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/01/chain-fire-what-happens-when-a-primer-column-detonates/

The same hand as in my first post.....miracle of surgery and the body's healing ability.....thank goodness. He went through a lot folks, the surgen (according to him) had to leave some metal in his finger or damage the nerves worse..... His story was posted in Calguns.....here. Link is to the last page where he resubmitted the pictures that disappeared on the first page. I don't think he thinks the whole affair was a "rounding error". I won't post a name, but one of the serious accidents with a Dillon had called to task a Lee user for blowing up his trays a year before his accident. It can happen to anyone....best not bury your head in the sand.

I'll post the APS picture when I find it.

BTW, I errored in the first post.....thought the ceiling picture was a 650 from Dillon's or Brian Enos.....I found the original again, and it was a Hornady AP....sorry....fading memory.

Found it... maybe even 4 or 5.....or a couple more....

I have no idea how he managed that many....it's closed off for nearly 2 inches on either side of the primer rod.....an issue yes, but it's not 100. Now I'm really curious....will message him and find out what parts had to be replaced free by RCBS!

 

[schmellba99]

ess than a rounding error?....that is bold.

Not really, when one considers the volume of shells loaded on a progressive style press with a tube feeder versus the amount of reported problems - and we can only go by reported, because anything beyond that is pure speculation. And we can speculate all day long on a great number of things, but in the end it still remains exactly that - speculation.

The APS style system may well be the bee's knees - I don't know because I have zero experience with it. Mostly because it is not a readily available system, both with equipment or components. We can discuss why all day long, but the fact remains that it is simply not a common system and therefore does not have much in terms of industry following.

Tube style systems are not perfect - and I don't think anybody has ever claimed that they are. Lord knows I've uttered a cuss word or 500 in my time working out some kinks. But, as you have stated, 100% of the problems with tube style systems result from user error. Hard as you try, you can't engineer out bad choices. You can minimize them significantly, but it's impossible to eliminate them.

I simply contend that the tube style priming systems are not the pipe bomb accidents waiting to happen you want them to be, and that the old adage of paying attention to the task at hand will virtually eliminate all user induced problems, thus leaving only the ever so minute chance that material issues will be the cause of any accidents.

Now, you can say that in the event of an accident, the APS system has a significantly lower chance of personal or equipment injury or damage and you'd be 100% correct based on the pictures you've shown on these threads. And I can say that a .22 LR is going to be significantly less damaging with equipment failure than a .44 Magnum is as well - but that doesn't mean that we should toss the .44 Magnum because of the potential for damage or injury, only that we should be aware of it while we are using it. Same with the tube style systems - pay attention, be aware, keep your equipment maintained (which you should be doing anyway), and simply don't do anything stupid and you've reduced your odds of an accident or injury down to something marginally above 0.0%.

 

[jmorris]

As soon as you think you can idiot proof something is the first sign you don't know people.

If you don't think that is true read some warning labels sometime. Start with the big one on your hair dryer warning not to use it in the bath tub, it's there (and that large) because not one or two but many have been less than smart.


In 30 years of loading and unloading a few hundred thousand primers into and out of tubes, I have never lit one off. My "secret" is not to force anything. If it doesn't feel right, something is wrong, stop!

 

[GWS]

Idiot-proofing is not goal. Neither is convincing traditionalists who haven't yet discovered the hard way, that primers touching each other in a metal tube is a pipe bomb waiting for a chance to go off. That "convincing" is impossible too.

You think Dillon's magnanimous invention, the "primer tube sleeve" is the cure.

The gentleman who still has parts of primer cups imbedded in his finger wasn't a stupid man. Nor did he force anything. He and we may never understand exactly why the "pipe bomb" went off in his hand, on its way to its Dillon safety cocoon....but it did.

So I stand by my description of a 100 primer carrying metal tube as a pipe bomb waiting to for a chance to go off. Who will be the next unlucky victim?

Jmorris I've got you beat. I'll be 66 in December. I've never lit a primer in 44 years. I'm trying really hard to to keep that record intact. The first thing I did to that end 35 years ago, to prevent that, was I removed the old RCBS RockChucker's tube system from my press. Thanks to Richard Lee.

You guys are saying, since a tube never exploded in your experience, it's perfectly safe and never will happen. If you think that that confidence is all you need then, great. Motor on, dudes.

 

[jmorris]

I know car crashes have killed (millions more injured) more than 3.5 million people in the U.S. but I still drive.

Know the risks, weigh them vs the rewards and make your choice. I am as happy with your choice as I am mine and happy both of our choices have been successful for us.