Hobbyist Gunsmith
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
Given the history of the ATF I would be very careful.
I remember a fellow who applied for and was denied an FFL because he did not sell enough guns.
He was arressted for selling 4 guns at a show. The charge was selling without a licensce.
Dealing with the ATF is an iffy proposition to say the least.
If you repair guns on a regular basis for people who are not immediate family or close friends you could spend alot of money proving that you are not in the trade.
They would probably take into consideration the quanity of tools and tooling which you have in your shop.
I remember a fellow who applied for and was denied an FFL because he did not sell enough guns.
He was arressted for selling 4 guns at a show. The charge was selling without a licensce.
Dealing with the ATF is an iffy proposition to say the least.
If you repair guns on a regular basis for people who are not immediate family or close friends you could spend alot of money proving that you are not in the trade.
They would probably take into consideration the quanity of tools and tooling which you have in your shop.
That wording seems very clear, but are you aware of the case law surrounding terms like "regular course" and "principal objective?" I am not familiar with case law regarding ATF licensing, but I do know that in other contexts the term "regular course" may not only mean doing something regularly, but can also mean "holding oneself out to be" (so an internet posting such as "I build ARs" might be problematic).
The penalties for violating ATF licensing rules are severe enough to make it worth a person's time to check with a knowledgeable lawyer rather than relying solely on internet advice.
So, if I am interpreting this thread correctly the general consensus is that even if you do just a small amount of work for friends you need an FFL. However, if you do not do enough work they can decline to issues you a FFL.
Obviously this seems to make no sense at all, but we are dealing with the government, so that is about par.Are you getting paid in money, favors, or trade?
Then yes...
You are a "Gunsmith", and need to hold an FFL, and have a tax number...
My only question was about the statements early in this thread that made it sound like anyone that took a friend, or relative's gun home 'overnight', needed to hold an FFL...
According to the linked statutes, that simply is not the case if you are not getting 'paid'...If no 'pay', then you are not a "Gunsmith" by definition...
I may be way off in my interpretation, and would be happy to be shown differently...
Herr Walther
New member
Of course it makes no sense. It's the Government.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Correction: It might not be the case.Salmoneye said:
Whether or not it will be the case will depend on (1) how courts have interpreted and/or applied similar statutory language; and (2) the totality of the circumstances.
So you might be way off in your interpretation, or you might not be. To have a better idea of which it is, one will need to review any relevant case law and consider the exact circumstances. I'm going to do neither because I have no personal stake in the answers.
But it's your freedom and future at stake, so you might want to do a little more research, or consult with and pay a lawyer to do it for you.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
You didn't quote the entire message. It said he sold four guns at a gun show. Remember that "gun show loophole" the antis are always whining about?Salmoneye said:
There ya go.
Nope...Sorry...Still makes no sense...
It states he was denied because he did not sell enough guns, and then was arrested for selling guns...
Getting an FFL is not based on 'current volume of sales'...
There is obviously more to the story, if in fact it is more than anecdotal...
Not my thread, and not my question...I agree, that in other people's scenarios in this thread, that It indeed "might not be the case"...
My question was simply about me being able to clean a gun left to my Sister by our late Father, and certainly for no 'consideration' in any form whatsoever...
It was stated that someone would need an FFL in that instance if the gun was kept overnight, which according to all relevant posts and links, is just not true...
Salmoneye
It is an actual case which was reported in the American Rifleman in the Mid 70s.
Fortunately, the Judge agreed with you and threw the case out and ripped into the Prosecutor and the ATF.
As my lawyer once said. Cops lie and the ATF has a history of lying. If an agent decides that he/she needs to make a case they may fabricate a case. Someone who, as a hobby, works on guns would be a good target.
It is an area were legal definitions come into play. Not a lot of case law. The suspect is probably a nice guy and naive about the law. Perfect target when you have an administration and management which is totally hostile to the 5th Admendment.
It is an actual case which was reported in the American Rifleman in the Mid 70s.
Fortunately, the Judge agreed with you and threw the case out and ripped into the Prosecutor and the ATF.
As my lawyer once said. Cops lie and the ATF has a history of lying. If an agent decides that he/she needs to make a case they may fabricate a case. Someone who, as a hobby, works on guns would be a good target.
It is an area were legal definitions come into play. Not a lot of case law. The suspect is probably a nice guy and naive about the law. Perfect target when you have an administration and management which is totally hostile to the 5th Admendment.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Of course it isn't based on "current" volume, because to have a current volume one would have to be illegally in the business. But getting an FFL IS based on the expectation of being seriously in the business. There are far fewer FFLs today than there were five or ten years ago. The BATFE has been almost ruthlessly eliminating "kitchen table" FFLs -- guys who have a safe in the basement and who sell out of their residence. There were such people -- I actually bought an Italian SAA clone from such a person some years ago, and we sat down at his kitchen table to fill out the paperwork.Salmoneye said:
The FFL now wants dealers to have a real store, and real business hours. It used to be that the requirement for posted business hours was enforced loosely -- if your hours were Sunday evening from 6:30 to 8:30, that would fly as long as you were there and open for business every Sunday evening. That won't cut it any more.
So most likely the subject of this "anecdote" couldn't satisfy the BATFE that he was going to running a real business, as opposed to being a "kitchen table" FFL. So they didn't give him an FFL. Then he sold four guns at a show and they nailed him for being "in business" without an FFL.
I have no problem accepting that this probably happened ... but I've dealt with Feds before so I know how they think.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I wouldn't be real concerned about a single case that happened 40 years ago and makes no sense under current regulations/conditions. FFLs are not issued based on volume. You don't need ANY volume. How would you, in fact, be denied an FFL for lack of volume when it is illegal to have any volume without first having the FFL?
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Salmoneye said:
Salmoneye,
This thread, at least in my view of it, is about the "grey area" that people tend to run afoul of, and are confused by with the ATF with in some ways. There is no minimum or maximum required for an FFL, even for gunsmithing. It is all based on the interpretaion of the inspector you are working with. This grey area is where many disagreements start when people discuss getting an FFL, or if a FFL is required.
In your case, cleaning your sisters firearm, say once or twice a year, I would not see a huge problem.
In the case of the OP in this thread, it would be advisable, at least in my opinion, for him to have an FFL. Talking about doing work for family AND friends, sounds like more of a regular thing, and would be more likely to catch the eye of the ATF if they are looking for something.
I'll go one further and flatly state after reviewing the regs, that there is no "problem" whatsoever in my case, let alone a huge one...
This I fully agree with...
As I stated, my questions all stem from the 'overnight' possession of someone else's gun...
Maybe being from Vermont I am naive, but I have lent guns to people, and had them lend me theirs...
Never till this thread had I seen anyone suggest that there is anything remotely 'untoward' about such actions as possessing someone else's firearm 'overnight' for any purpose...
I do appreciate the thread, and thanks for the replies...
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Im glad that has helped you some. I try my best to not speak in "absolute" or "concrete" terms when discussing the ATF regs. Why? While the ATF regs/faqs/etc may say one thing, they are always open to interpretation by the local inspectors, so be cautious if you look in to doing anything more in the future.
Lending a firearm to a resident of one state is generally legal as far as I know, as long as state and local laws do not prevent it, and the person is not prohibited.
The difference between that and this thread, is by doing a repair, or "other work" on a firearm, it may require an FFL depending on the extent of what is going on.
Again, in your case I dont see any red flags so to speak. Just cleaning your sisters firearm once in a blue moon shouldnt be a problem.
It would be different if the ATF had a complaint and stopped by when you had, say 5 firearms belonging to others for repair or "other work" over night, and you did not have an FFL. Even if you were saying you are not being paid, the ATF "may" not like this and give a problem.
I hope yourself and others see the difference.
Salmoneye said:
Lending a firearm to a resident of one state is generally legal as far as I know, as long as state and local laws do not prevent it, and the person is not prohibited.
The difference between that and this thread, is by doing a repair, or "other work" on a firearm, it may require an FFL depending on the extent of what is going on.
Again, in your case I dont see any red flags so to speak. Just cleaning your sisters firearm once in a blue moon shouldnt be a problem.
It would be different if the ATF had a complaint and stopped by when you had, say 5 firearms belonging to others for repair or "other work" over night, and you did not have an FFL. Even if you were saying you are not being paid, the ATF "may" not like this and give a problem.
I hope yourself and others see the difference.
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dogtown tom
New member
The myths that will not die.....
Here we go again........
Aguila Blanca ....
This is an often repeated myth that ATF is on a purge of kitchen table dealers. If you would do a bit of research you would discover that the great majority of former licensees were ineligible to even apply for an FFL....they either lied on their application that they were not obtaining the FFL for personal use, were not able to operate a business from their home due to zoning, failed to obtain required sales tax permits or other requirements to obtain or renew their FFL. When given the opportunity to get legal many chose to let their license lapse rather than obtain sales tax permits or find a location where zoning permitted business operations.
There is no such requirement under Federal law, nor is there any ATF regulation that requires a 'real store" and "posted business hours".....ATF & Federal law do require that the applicant have a "licensed premises"....which can be a storefront, a residence, or a cardboard box in your backyard. As long as the applicant can legally operate a business from the licensed premises he will be approved.
The ATF application requires the applicant to list "business hours" or the hours he intends to devote time and attention to his business.....there is no requirement that the licensee be open to the public or have public "business hours". Many home based FFL's never have a wwalk in customer....doing business strictly via internet sales.
As often as the "no kitchen table FFL's" myth has been debunked just here on TFL, its amazing it keeps getting repeated.
Here we go again........
Aguila Blanca ....
An 01FFL is for someone who intends to engage in the business of dealing in firearms. How "serious" they are is not a requirement. There is no minimum number of firearms that must be bought/sold/traded/transferred/etc....BUT...the licensee MUST be engaged in the business and not using his 01FFL solely for enhancing his personal collection.
ATF has no problem with home based or "kitchen table" dealers....I'm one and there are THOUSANDS of others....kitchen table FFL's outnumber retail storefront FFL's.
This is an often repeated myth that ATF is on a purge of kitchen table dealers. If you would do a bit of research you would discover that the great majority of former licensees were ineligible to even apply for an FFL....they either lied on their application that they were not obtaining the FFL for personal use, were not able to operate a business from their home due to zoning, failed to obtain required sales tax permits or other requirements to obtain or renew their FFL. When given the opportunity to get legal many chose to let their license lapse rather than obtain sales tax permits or find a location where zoning permitted business operations.
Yep, I do this nearly every day.
You keep posting absolute nonsense.
There is no such requirement under Federal law, nor is there any ATF regulation that requires a 'real store" and "posted business hours".....ATF & Federal law do require that the applicant have a "licensed premises"....which can be a storefront, a residence, or a cardboard box in your backyard. As long as the applicant can legally operate a business from the licensed premises he will be approved.
The ATF application requires the applicant to list "business hours" or the hours he intends to devote time and attention to his business.....there is no requirement that the licensee be open to the public or have public "business hours". Many home based FFL's never have a wwalk in customer....doing business strictly via internet sales.
Quite likely nothing of the sort as "kitchen table" FFLs are running a real business.
As often as the "no kitchen table FFL's" myth has been debunked just here on TFL, its amazing it keeps getting repeated.
I fully agree with the above post, the only thing I will add is that when we were interviewed for our FFL we were ask if we would be "activly engaged" in the firearms business. Activly engaged is open for interpretation, if one is only selling or transfering 10 guns a year I would question if that is considered activly engaged but according to the written requirements I see nothing that mentions any specific quota. Our business is run from our house and is by appointment, most of the time people call and just come over, I do not want any walk in's and we do not advertise at all, word of mouth is ones best advertising.....