Hobbyist Gunsmith
- Thread starter BarryLee
- Start date
Armorer-at-Law
New member
dogtown tom
New member
ATF requires an FFL for anyone engaging in the business of gunsmithing.
While "engaging in the business" usually means you perform that service for $$$....ATF will not ask to see your checking account before they indict you.
They will look at the volume of work you are performing on other peoples firearms....not how much $$$ you are earning.
While "engaging in the business" usually means you perform that service for $$$....ATF will not ask to see your checking account before they indict you.
They will look at the volume of work you are performing on other peoples firearms....not how much $$$ you are earning.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
The thing to consider is that it's an enormous "gray area." If the ATF wants to come after you, they very well might just look at your volume. If you're not making a profit, that just means you're lousy at your business.
You'd probably be okay working on one or two guns a month for people you personally know. But if at any given time you've got 15 or 20 guns belonging to strangers in your workshop in various stages of being worked on, there's a good chance that you won't be okay. Where things go from being okay to not being okay just isn't clear. And things like holding on to guns for a while or receiving guns for work from folks in other States will add further complications.
You'd probably be okay working on one or two guns a month for people you personally know. But if at any given time you've got 15 or 20 guns belonging to strangers in your workshop in various stages of being worked on, there's a good chance that you won't be okay. Where things go from being okay to not being okay just isn't clear. And things like holding on to guns for a while or receiving guns for work from folks in other States will add further complications.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
I would also suggest to folks considering becoming a gunsmith to look closely at the difference between what you are or may be doing when looking at FFL types.
While fiddletown mentioned one of the "grey areas" in the regulations, another one that you may encounter is when does a person go from repairing/modifying a firearm, to manufacturing a firearm. I dont know what all you would intend to do as far as work goes, but I would ask that you consider this issue as well.
While fiddletown mentioned one of the "grey areas" in the regulations, another one that you may encounter is when does a person go from repairing/modifying a firearm, to manufacturing a firearm. I dont know what all you would intend to do as far as work goes, but I would ask that you consider this issue as well.
This is just opinion,no legal basis:
If you are fixing your sister's handgun,I do not see the factor attracting attention,or the concern of the BATF.Low key,no problem
However,suppose you are a Cowboy Shooter and the folks in your club figure out you are a good hand at keeping their 6-guns,Win '97's and lever actions running.You come home from shoots with 2 or 5 guns each month,suddenly,you are not so low key.You get famous.
Suppose you do a fine job and have happy customers....and they mention it to the guy with the brick and mortar gunshop paying taxes and fees and filling out paperwork trying to make a living,and being inspected and audited by the BATF.This gunsmith might feel frustrated and complain.
You drill and tap for a scope base,and your happy customer has a negligent discharge resulting in injury/death,or loads 72 grains of Bullseye in his 300 win mag(don't do that,its a blow up the gun load)so now,there is an investigation because somebody is hurt,lawyers are involved,and you drilled and tapped it,or worse,put on a recoil pad!
The custody thing could get important,example,you get stolen from.Six firearms are missing.They have 5 owners,not you.You are explaining the stolen guns to the police.
You get some AR tools,build your own.And,you do one for a buddy.Your buddy's cousin.They shoot good!After a while the local constable and DA have heard a rumor some guy in his garage is putting hundreds,thousands,jillions of EBR's on the street.
IMO,the penalties are high,and a variety of politics can enter into the mix.I choose to be squeeky clean legal.I do my own work,but explain to folks who want me to build for them "Law requires an FFL and I do not have one,so I do not take in work'
As I said,just an opinion.
If you are fixing your sister's handgun,I do not see the factor attracting attention,or the concern of the BATF.Low key,no problem
However,suppose you are a Cowboy Shooter and the folks in your club figure out you are a good hand at keeping their 6-guns,Win '97's and lever actions running.You come home from shoots with 2 or 5 guns each month,suddenly,you are not so low key.You get famous.
Suppose you do a fine job and have happy customers....and they mention it to the guy with the brick and mortar gunshop paying taxes and fees and filling out paperwork trying to make a living,and being inspected and audited by the BATF.This gunsmith might feel frustrated and complain.
You drill and tap for a scope base,and your happy customer has a negligent discharge resulting in injury/death,or loads 72 grains of Bullseye in his 300 win mag(don't do that,its a blow up the gun load)so now,there is an investigation because somebody is hurt,lawyers are involved,and you drilled and tapped it,or worse,put on a recoil pad!
The custody thing could get important,example,you get stolen from.Six firearms are missing.They have 5 owners,not you.You are explaining the stolen guns to the police.
You get some AR tools,build your own.And,you do one for a buddy.Your buddy's cousin.They shoot good!After a while the local constable and DA have heard a rumor some guy in his garage is putting hundreds,thousands,jillions of EBR's on the street.
IMO,the penalties are high,and a variety of politics can enter into the mix.I choose to be squeeky clean legal.I do my own work,but explain to folks who want me to build for them "Law requires an FFL and I do not have one,so I do not take in work'
As I said,just an opinion.
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Uncle Buck
New member
About a year or so ago, I called the ATF about trying to set up a business in which I cleaned guns, did bore sighting and very small repairs.
They sent me a packet of information and the requirements were just too much for me.
I probably could have done it under the radar, but I really try to be honest in my endeavors and thought I would go about it correctly.
The ATF agent I spoke with said if the person who owned the gun did not live in my household, then technically I would be covered under their regulations.
They sent me a packet of information and the requirements were just too much for me.
I probably could have done it under the radar, but I really try to be honest in my endeavors and thought I would go about it correctly.
The ATF agent I spoke with said if the person who owned the gun did not live in my household, then technically I would be covered under their regulations.
Silver Bullet
New member
I was just about to bring up liability considerations. It might be a hobby to you, but if someone gets killed because of a slam fire it's going to get mighty serious to somebody. I would recommend either know your limitations and don't exceed them, or maybe get insurance.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
There is still an issue, I believe, because the BATFE has decreed that anyone doing gunsmithing work who keeps a firearm overnight must enter it into his bound book. No FFL ==> no bound book.Salmoneye said:
If you can turn everything around while the (non) customer waits, then this won't be an issue. It could be an issue even if you don't intend to keep guns overnight. Buddy Sam drops off a rifle to have scope rings mounted. You can do it same day, and he's supposed to pick it up at 5:15 on his way home from work. Something comes up, and he doesn't pick it up. Now you have possession of Sam's firearm overnight ... and no bound book. Maybe not even room in your safe for his firearm.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
Im not AB, but I thought I would share this from the ATF in reference to your question. Hope you dont mind AB
Q: Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent “bound book” record every firearm received for adjustment or repair?
If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an “acquisition.” If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record.
The above is from: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html#license-activities
Another issue you may run into. What if you have have a firearm, and the owner sends another person to pick it up? Only the owner can pick up a firearm he/she dropped off he/herself. If its returned to another person after the work is done a 4473 must be done.
Also, say you order parts for a job, when they arrive, you install them but the (non)customer doesnt have the money to pay. Without an FFL you can not hold the firearm for payment as some gunsmiths do.
Its way easier to be licensed, and work within the rules then to try to find a loophole or work around which is what this thread seems to become. While you may be on solid ground in your own mind, it doesnt stop an ATF inspector from trying to make a test case, and even if you did win in court, you still have lost in the long term.
Also, the ATF FAQ page for the bound book is here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-records-required.html
Q: Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent “bound book” record every firearm received for adjustment or repair?
If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the “bound book” as an “acquisition.” If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an “acquisition” and a “disposition” in the permanent "bound book" record.
The above is from: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html#license-activities
Another issue you may run into. What if you have have a firearm, and the owner sends another person to pick it up? Only the owner can pick up a firearm he/she dropped off he/herself. If its returned to another person after the work is done a 4473 must be done.
Also, say you order parts for a job, when they arrive, you install them but the (non)customer doesnt have the money to pay. Without an FFL you can not hold the firearm for payment as some gunsmiths do.
Its way easier to be licensed, and work within the rules then to try to find a loophole or work around which is what this thread seems to become. While you may be on solid ground in your own mind, it doesnt stop an ATF inspector from trying to make a test case, and even if you did win in court, you still have lost in the long term.
Also, the ATF FAQ page for the bound book is here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-records-required.html
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