Handcuffs a no-no?
- Thread starter hogdogs
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Everyone: please take a moment to read through a couple of articles.
The first: www.useofforce.us
The second: www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx
If you prefer to learn things in dead-tree format, take a look at Massad Ayoob's classic book, In the Gravest Extreme. And if you have the money and time to do so, take an LFI-1 class from him or at least the JUDF portion of that class.
Or surf over to www.armedcitizensnetwork.org and read through the back issues of their e-Journal, then join up and receive three excellent educational CDs explaining how to stay on the good side of the law when defending your life and the lives of your loved ones.
There's an incredible number of folks posting here who are misinformed or simply uninformed about the laws that govern the legal use of lethal force in the United States. Please, for your own sakes -- do your homework. The life you save might be your own.
pax
The first: www.useofforce.us
The second: www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx
If you prefer to learn things in dead-tree format, take a look at Massad Ayoob's classic book, In the Gravest Extreme. And if you have the money and time to do so, take an LFI-1 class from him or at least the JUDF portion of that class.
Or surf over to www.armedcitizensnetwork.org and read through the back issues of their e-Journal, then join up and receive three excellent educational CDs explaining how to stay on the good side of the law when defending your life and the lives of your loved ones.
There's an incredible number of folks posting here who are misinformed or simply uninformed about the laws that govern the legal use of lethal force in the United States. Please, for your own sakes -- do your homework. The life you save might be your own.
pax
skydiver3346
New member
Okay, Old Marksman:
You say that this has happened to you three times???
Then you of all people should understand what I am saying. You must live in Florida too as you keep referring to Florida statutes. I really am only concerned about two things in my life when someone breaks into my home:
1. Protecting me
2. Protecting my family
That's it, period. I don't believe there is a jury in this state who would convict me for having to shoot a bad guy for putting my family at risk in the middle of the night. That is the bad guy's decision and my reaction to his decision. In Florida, you home is your castle and if the bad guy decides to leave (before any gunfire) that is great. If he decides to surrender and lay down (until the police arrive), that is great. I sure a heck do not want to take someone's life. However, my primary job is to protect my family and I am not too worried about violating the dirt bag's rights, etc. We are living in the wrong country and/or wrong century if I would be sent to prision for defending my life and my family's life.
I think that you "think" too much about the bad guy and what could possibly happen to you as a result of taking him out. This could cause you big problems one day (and I sure hope that never happens to you or your family).
Your rights are being violated by someone breaking in your home. Your life is being put to the test! You personally, do NOT know what the criminal mind will decide to do (if they are caught by you). Not good....
Tell ya what: "You do what you think is best and I will do what I think is best and the chips will fall where they may"......
You say that this has happened to you three times???
Then you of all people should understand what I am saying. You must live in Florida too as you keep referring to Florida statutes. I really am only concerned about two things in my life when someone breaks into my home:
1. Protecting me
2. Protecting my family
That's it, period. I don't believe there is a jury in this state who would convict me for having to shoot a bad guy for putting my family at risk in the middle of the night. That is the bad guy's decision and my reaction to his decision. In Florida, you home is your castle and if the bad guy decides to leave (before any gunfire) that is great. If he decides to surrender and lay down (until the police arrive), that is great. I sure a heck do not want to take someone's life. However, my primary job is to protect my family and I am not too worried about violating the dirt bag's rights, etc. We are living in the wrong country and/or wrong century if I would be sent to prision for defending my life and my family's life.
I think that you "think" too much about the bad guy and what could possibly happen to you as a result of taking him out. This could cause you big problems one day (and I sure hope that never happens to you or your family).
Your rights are being violated by someone breaking in your home. Your life is being put to the test! You personally, do NOT know what the criminal mind will decide to do (if they are caught by you). Not good....
Tell ya what: "You do what you think is best and I will do what I think is best and the chips will fall where they may"......
Thanks GSUeagle... I was in a hurry when I typed that. *doh*
Um.... if they have unlawfully entered your occupied home, it is usually called burglary. Most states define burglary as a felony. Thus, you are confronting someone in the act of committing a felony crime -- a felon.Hook686 said:
Be sure to know and understand your own state's laws.
In any shooting event, at home or in public, you had best be able to articulate (to your attorney at least) what it was that put you in fear for your life. This will be especially true if the deceased was unarmed and/or was weighed down by excessive lead deposits.
OldMarksman
Staff
Same for me.
The law allows you to shoot to protect yourself and your family.
Yep.
And again, yep.
To the extent that the above describes your thoughts, we are in complete agreement.
I don't think about him in that regard. Where what could happen to me becomes an issue is in the interpretation of the following words:
The law permits a citizen to use deadly force in self defense and has for 4000 years. It does not permit a citizen to administer justice in a case where someone has threatened but is no longer threatening, or to punish him for breaking into his house. That's up to the courts.
That's what I mean when I say that the intruder has rights under the law. You may defend against him and he may die, but beyond that, it's up to the justice system to administer justice to him.
Should a citizen engage in that course of activity and should the evidence so indicate, he won't be a lot of use to his family in terms of providing for them or protecting them afterwards. He will have become the criminal.
The most obvious example that comes to mind is that of the pharmacist in Oklahoma. We don't know all of the facts, but it appears that he shot a crook when he didn't have to.
The original question was about whether to use handcuffs. People who know how to use them have advised against it.
My comment was that I will not, under any circumstances I can think of, ever involve myself in a citizen's arrest, nor would I ever consider using deadly force against a fleeing suspect.
I can tell an assailant in the house to stop advancing, and if he does not comply, blam, if I have to. But if I command someone to lie down, stand still, turn around, etc. I have absolutely no way of making him do so.
Beyond the obvious criminal and civil risks, and the risks of a negligent discharge, there are the risks that one of them might get the upper hand, that while I'm waiting the driver or another participant may come around to see what's taking so long and use his gun on me, and that someone else--peace officer or passer by--may see me pointing a gun at someone and shoot me.
No, I want 'em gone. I'm perfectly content to have them leave and let the long arm of the law chase them down. Who knows--could be I won't even have to testify.
It has occurred to me that a stationary digital camera activated by a switch might provide something additional for the police and prosecutors.
Take a look at the material Pax posted.
By the way, I live in Missouri. The OP lives in Florida, as do you. Our laws read differently, but I am advised that the intent is the essentially same regarding home invasions.
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David Armstrong
Moderator
While I'm sure some places might allow it, I sure wouldn't like to be the test case for that in court. Going to have an awfully hard time explaining why it was reasonable or necessary to use deadly force against someone who is urinating, no matter what property they are urinating on. There is no threat of force against you, and the only danger might be the offensive odor.
Really, folks, let the BG go away. There isn't any reason to keep him around, and as any LEO will tell you a good general rule is that the longer you try to keep someone under control the more dangerous they get.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Interested or not, one needs to consider all those things and more when contemplating anything except an immediate and unavoidable self defense situation. DGUs don't happen in a vacuum, they are just a part of a very big picture that includes laws, rights, political issues, and so on. Rather silly to use deadly force to protect your property, for example, if you are going to lose all your property because you used deadly force.
That is a nice opinion, but it is factually incorrect.
David Armstrong
Moderator
You're still liable.
Tucker 1371
New member
Just cover the guy and let someone else make the phone call. No worries about a lawsuit cause you A) didn't shoot him and B) didn't handcuff and supposedly "unlawfully imprison" him. Save the handcuffs for someone who will enjoy being in them .
.BuckHammer
New member
What is the record for most consecutive posts by one user? Just wondering...
NickySantoro
Moderator
Anyone other than a sworn officer who attempts to handcuff someone deserves to leave the scene in considerably worse condition than when he arrived.
Tucker 1371
New member
Not sure I agree with that Mr. Santoro. This is a legitimate option, you want to secure the guy so he doesn't 1) get away with B&E 2) so you're not forced to shoot and probably kill him.
Personally, I wouldn't do it. You don't know what the BG has on him or on his mind. It's definitely a lot more dangerous than just holding the gun on him and getting another family member to call the police.
Personally, I wouldn't do it. You don't know what the BG has on him or on his mind. It's definitely a lot more dangerous than just holding the gun on him and getting another family member to call the police.
guntotin_fool
New member
Handcuffs are a problem waiting to happen,
Ever watch COPS? Ever see how many in shape, trained LEO's it takes to get the cuffs on a recalcitrant suspect? You are going to do this, alone, untrained, in your house? BS, you try, you are going to get at worst a beat down, and more than likely, the cuffs on you and him with your gun.
Its really easy. If he is in your house without permission and committing a felony, if you did not invite him in, if you are afraid that he is going to hurt you, you can SHOOT HIM. if you prefer NOT to shoot him, then tell him in small words to get the hell out or you will shoot him. If you wish, you might be generous and tell him lay down and spread them or you will shoot him. If he refuses, you can feel that he is figuring out how to hurt you, and you can SHOOT him.
Find me ONE SINGLE CASE where an honest law abiding home owner was ever charged or convicted for shooting a burglar or strong arm robbery suspect in their own home. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. If the person is being charged, it is because of other circumstance. IE a drug deal gone bad, or someone invited them in, but after 25 beers, when the invitee had worn out there welcome by hitting on the inviters GF, inviter shoots invitee, no thats not going to fly.
BUT if you are joe homeowner, watching TV at midnight when someone kicks your door open and starts demanding your money and you put three center of mass, or if you come in from the deck and charlie crackhead is in your Living room boosting your TV, and you pop him, your NOT going to jail. More than likely, the kind of guy who breaks into your home is going to have a record that has its own hard drive down at the Local PD. Its a simple fact, most crimes are committed by a very small percentage of the population. When you find yourself confronted in your own home by a invader, that is the lifestyle this person has chosen. More often than not, you will get a very private "attaboy" from the cops who show up. They will know his name without looking for ID, When the Cops say, "bad day to be you, Joe Bob," or "Tyrone", Or "Hector" to the body on your floor, relax, you did a good thing.
I get sick and tired of people thinking that if you do not follow a prescribed set of steps in exactly the right order, you are going to spend your life behind bars if you shoot. NO you are not, IF you are a good law abiding Citizen and your worst "crime" to date has been a speeding ticket driving home from church to catch the rest of the first half of the football game. If you have some drug history, or a few D&D charges from your years of being a jack ass, you might have some trouble, but if like most americans, your worst thing was a traffic citation, or you got caught stealing the rival high schools mascot and you had to pick up trash for two weekends, NO you are not going to jail for shooting a hoodlum in your house.
Handcuffs are a problem for anyone except the Law, and maybe a few who have wives who like that sort of thing. other than that, All I see out of it is a lawsuit.
Ever watch COPS? Ever see how many in shape, trained LEO's it takes to get the cuffs on a recalcitrant suspect? You are going to do this, alone, untrained, in your house? BS, you try, you are going to get at worst a beat down, and more than likely, the cuffs on you and him with your gun.
Its really easy. If he is in your house without permission and committing a felony, if you did not invite him in, if you are afraid that he is going to hurt you, you can SHOOT HIM. if you prefer NOT to shoot him, then tell him in small words to get the hell out or you will shoot him. If you wish, you might be generous and tell him lay down and spread them or you will shoot him. If he refuses, you can feel that he is figuring out how to hurt you, and you can SHOOT him.
Find me ONE SINGLE CASE where an honest law abiding home owner was ever charged or convicted for shooting a burglar or strong arm robbery suspect in their own home. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. If the person is being charged, it is because of other circumstance. IE a drug deal gone bad, or someone invited them in, but after 25 beers, when the invitee had worn out there welcome by hitting on the inviters GF, inviter shoots invitee, no thats not going to fly.
BUT if you are joe homeowner, watching TV at midnight when someone kicks your door open and starts demanding your money and you put three center of mass, or if you come in from the deck and charlie crackhead is in your Living room boosting your TV, and you pop him, your NOT going to jail. More than likely, the kind of guy who breaks into your home is going to have a record that has its own hard drive down at the Local PD. Its a simple fact, most crimes are committed by a very small percentage of the population. When you find yourself confronted in your own home by a invader, that is the lifestyle this person has chosen. More often than not, you will get a very private "attaboy" from the cops who show up. They will know his name without looking for ID, When the Cops say, "bad day to be you, Joe Bob," or "Tyrone", Or "Hector" to the body on your floor, relax, you did a good thing.
I get sick and tired of people thinking that if you do not follow a prescribed set of steps in exactly the right order, you are going to spend your life behind bars if you shoot. NO you are not, IF you are a good law abiding Citizen and your worst "crime" to date has been a speeding ticket driving home from church to catch the rest of the first half of the football game. If you have some drug history, or a few D&D charges from your years of being a jack ass, you might have some trouble, but if like most americans, your worst thing was a traffic citation, or you got caught stealing the rival high schools mascot and you had to pick up trash for two weekends, NO you are not going to jail for shooting a hoodlum in your house.
Handcuffs are a problem for anyone except the Law, and maybe a few who have wives who like that sort of thing. other than that, All I see out of it is a lawsuit.
#18indycolts
Moderator
actually it has happened, it does happen and will continue to happen. Just give me a few and I'll get the links for you. If the prosecution proves that your life wasn't at risk then you can go to jail.
KingEdward
New member
"So in areas where you have the right to use any level of force to stop a violent felony could you use hand cuffs on the felon... LEGALLY?"
this is a little confusing...
I assume you mean that a violent felony has begun or is well underway and some how you have stopped it (gunpoint, commands, physical control).
If you have stopped a violent felony and have not fired a shot, I assume you consider cuffs an option to hold them there to be picked up. Another poster summed this one up for me when they said, "I'm not in the business of detaining criminals."
If you have stopped a violent felony via shots fired, then you shouldn't be concerned with handcuffs. More concerned about safety and medical attention.
It does not appear you are talking about someone in your home just standing in the kitchen after b & e or someone outside taking your car cd player. Since the term violent felony is used.
this is a little confusing...
I assume you mean that a violent felony has begun or is well underway and some how you have stopped it (gunpoint, commands, physical control).
If you have stopped a violent felony and have not fired a shot, I assume you consider cuffs an option to hold them there to be picked up. Another poster summed this one up for me when they said, "I'm not in the business of detaining criminals."
If you have stopped a violent felony via shots fired, then you shouldn't be concerned with handcuffs. More concerned about safety and medical attention.
It does not appear you are talking about someone in your home just standing in the kitchen after b & e or someone outside taking your car cd player. Since the term violent felony is used.
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