Handcuffs a no-no?

Status
Not open for further replies.

KingEdward

New member
if he's at gun point, then to not get shot he can do one of two things....

1) just stand there and keep his hands up (or lie down is fine)

2) turn and leave

reaching for a pocket or behind the back or coming forward toward me after
a warning will mean shots fired.

And he will have been informed of such.

an escaped TN convict was found hiding in a woman's home and she confronted/held him at gunpoint. He didn't move until authorities arrived.

She simply told him, I would rather not shoot you, but if you move, I'll shoot
you.

I would think similarly.
 

honkylips

New member
When police cuff somebody, they are detaining or taking them into custody. When you handcuff somebody, you are kidnapping them. Very few exceptions there.

Handcuffing is very dangerous (you can't handcuff somebody from afar). Keep you and yours safe and leave the cuffing to the pros.
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
That's the nuance. If you tell him not to move as movement is threatening then you might have a self-defense case. However, if he is running out the door - that's going to be a toughee.

But telling him to move when he isn't directly threatening and he doesn't - that's hard to justify a shoot unless he is sitting on you.
 

oldkim

New member
waste of time

Don't put any thought into putting handcuffs on as a civilian.

There is no need to get that close to a BG.

It's like the movies you see where the idiot goes and let's the BG in. Your yelling at the screen, "Don't do it!"

DON'T DO IT!
 

ilbob

New member
Someone breaks into your home, you get the tactical advantage, and ??? Well, exactly WHAT are you supposed to do then? Tell them to leave? Do nothing? Say nothing? What?

What ever tactical advantage you had goes out the window if you try to cuff him.

I encourage you to try handcuffing a subject who is even passively resisting. It is not a safe or easy thing to do, even for a well trained person who has done it many times before.
 

Hkmp5sd

New member
Someone breaks into your home, you get the tactical advantage, and ??? Well, exactly WHAT are you supposed to do then? Tell them to leave? Do nothing? Say nothing? What?

I'd tell him not to move.

If he obeys, fine. We wait on the cops.

If he runs for it, fine. The cops can go chase him. My goal is to keep me and the family safe. If I can do that without shooting someone, great. Run-away, run-away.

I have absolutely NO intention of getting close enough to him to allow a physical confrontation between us. Distance and obstacles are good things.
 

wayneinFL

New member
No normal criminal is going to let you put cuffs on him.

If he does I'd be very suspicious. He is either:

1. Very compliant, so compliant you don't need to put cuffs on him anyway.

2. Waiting for a chance to make his next move. Think about this: you're cuffing someone you think was so dangerous that you had to use lethal force. Your life was in danger from this guy. Now you're going to put away your gun and approach him with cuffs? You're going to get within arms' reach and give him a chance to get weapons like your gun and handcuffs. Don't forget those handcuffs will turn into a mace with one end hooked on.

There are also liability issues, but they've been covered pretty well.

Cuffs are a bad idea. Have the guy prone out with his face down, and stay behind him. Or make him drop his pants.
 
Last edited:

hogdogs

Staff In Memoriam
well it appears I will just buy the badge and go after momma with the cuffs... Gotta use 'em on sumthin!
Yes I agree it is very hard to cuff the unwilling, Junior and I would go at each other each with a pair, he with youthful strength and flexibility, and weight advantage. I with treachery, skill and a determination advantage... He ended up with a front tooth chipped pretty bad and me left explainin' it to momma... I woulda rather shared the doghouse with the farting bulldog but couldn't open the doors in them cuffs she had me in... after a couple days I got used to them though:eek:
It was just a curious thought at an early hour...
"Mrs.hogdogs, I am officer Brent and I am afraid I am gonna have to cuff ya and ask you a few questions..." I may have to work on the ice breaker line me thinks!:D
Brent
 

hogdogs

Staff In Memoriam
I was almost run off the road with my wife on my harley by a drunk driver...
I followed the guy to the county equipment repair shop. Guy runs inside, I grabbed his open beer and keys out of his car and wait for the cops to show up. Deputy not only refuses to take my complaint, but also threatens me with burglary of a conveyance and unlawful detainment.
Brent
 

skydiver3346

New member
Attn: Old Marksman

:barf: Of course you are trying to sound like an attorney and make good points from your your comments, (on what I should do if someone broke into MY home).

However, (at the time I discover a stranger in my home in the middle of the night) I'm really not too interested in the Florida Statues, presumption of guilt, statutory interpertations, and especially your last statement: "The intruder has rights under the law"???? :barf:

What the hell about me and my family's rights? Don't we have rights? Of course, I would hope they would leave before having to shoot someone but that may not happen (before I decide to protect myself, family and possessions).

People who make comments like you just made: I really wonder what YOU would personally do, if someone actually broke in your home in the middle of the night, (brew them a pot of coffee)?

Hmmmn, YES I WOULD PROBABLY STILL SHOOT THEM if I felt threatened and I felt the situation had crossed the line. I'm not that concerned (at that particular time) about legal eagle advice (as it is my butt on the line and not yours).

As my best friend (a police officer) told me years ago, "anyone who breaks into your home in the middle of the night, is there for one of three reasons".
1. To rob you
2. To hurt/rape you
3. Maybe both!

Think about it......... :rolleyes:
 

chemgirlie

New member
"The intruder has rights under the law"????
Yep. Until he is convicted after having gone through due process he has the same rights everybody else does.

I would rather not shoot anybody, but if I had to I would. I would stay away from any situation that could put me in a situation where I violated the law. I wouldn't want my daughter growing up knowing mommy's in prison.

I wouldn't be kind or polite to the intruder, but I also wouldn't want to put myself in a bad situation where I can end up being prosecuted.
 

Wagonman

New member
Get on the Floor - NOW!

1. NO
2. Doesn't move
3. Starts to talk in some strange language.
4. Starts to take a whiz on your couch.

People don't necessarily comply.

Next move - again.

On #4 - seen this simulated in two different FOFs - if it happens in real life, maybe one of our LEO friends know. Dave? Wagonman?

Active resister = I can use strikes and direct mechanical means (ASP Baton) and I think OC spray to gain compliance. But, I have to make the arrest you don't.

I don't have the continuum available at home so I can't give chapter and verse.

That said, handcuffing someone who doesn't want to be is a PITA and needs at least a couple of Coppers. I would not advise taking prisoners---If they want to leave let em. Be ruthless in your defense but know when to stand down.
 

skydiver3346

New member
Chemgirlie: PLEASE!

:
I understand what you are trying to say and surely, nobody wants to take someone's life (for any reason). However, what is your little girl going to do, (if something was to happen to you when a bad guy breaks in your home one night)? While you are trying to make sure his "rights" are not violated, he may sure as hell have other ideas, (I'm sure he has other ideas and it won't be about your rights, or he would not have broken in your home).

In my personal opinion, when a dirt bag like that physically breaks in your home, he loses his rights once he is inside your residence. There is not a lot of time to try and figure it all out. You should be armed and ready to defend yourself and your family. Hopefully that does not ever happen (I hope you don't) but it pays to be careful and prepared. Live another day and let the authorities figure the rest of it out. This is not a business or street corner we are talking about here: IT IS YOUR HOME and that is your castle in my book.
 

chemgirlie

New member
I would absolutely defend myself, and I wouldn't have a problem shooting somebody in defense. Assuming the BG is in a situation where he's no longer a threat (on the floor looking at the carpet with hands on head) I won't be approaching him or getting any closer than I need to.

Unfortunately this day in age we have to make sure we cover our collective tushes from litigation. I'd rather just stand there and wait for the LEOs to arrest the BG properly, as I have zero experience doing so on somebody who will cooperate, let alone somebody who has intentions of hurting me.

In my personal opinion, when a dirt bag like that physically breaks in your home, he loses his rights once he is inside your residence.
The thing is personal opinions don't matter during a trial.
 
However, (at the time I discover a stranger in my home in the middle of the night) I'm really not too interested in the Florida Statues, presumption of guilt, statutory interpertations,...

Perfectly natural to feel that way at that time...but after the fact, those will be the only things that anyone will be discussing, and they will be very, very important to anyone who has used deadly force. They will determine his future.

...and especially your last statement: "The intruder has rights under the law"????

Don't get me wrong. I don't have any sympathy for any violent criminal actor. It's just that none of us can overstep and pass sentence on him. We can defend ourselves, and he may die by our hands, and that may be justified, but we cannot, by shooting when we are not threatened, decide to deny him due process, without ending up on the wrong side of the law ourselves.

What the hell about me and my family's rights? Don't we have rights? Of course, I would hope they would leave before having to shoot someone but that may not happen (before I decide to protect myself, family and possessions).

In every state including yours and mine, you have the right to protect yourself and yours as necessary, and that includes the use of deadly force.

I really wonder what YOU would personally do, if someone actually broke in your home in the middle of the night, (brew them a pot of coffee)?

I've had it happen three times, and each time I was ready to shoot. Very ready. Fortunately they all elected to depart before I had to.

Hmmmn, YES I WOULD PROBABLY STILL SHOOT THEM if I felt threatened and I felt the situation had crossed the line.

Seems reasonable. Just make sure you don't "cross the line" yourself, should the treat dissipate.

I'm not that concerned (at that particular time) about legal eagle advice (as it is my butt on the line and not yours).

Yet, indeed it is yours. But it's a very good idea to understand the laws relating to the use of deadly force...beforehand.

As my best friend (a police officer) told me years ago, "anyone who breaks into your home in the middle of the night, is there for one of three reasons".
1. To rob you
2. To hurt/rape you
3. Maybe both!

You and I could think of a few other conceivable reasons, but those are no doubt the reasons for the presumption set forth in the Florida statutes.

So, one or more people break in unlawfully and with force. You do not have to retreat, and you do not have to come up with any evidence other than the fact of the break in as a basis for a reasonable belief that you are in imminent danger. You can shoot if you have to. You are shooting to protect yourself and your family, and not to execute them for breaking into your home.

But should the evildoers suddenly become wiser, less courageous, or kinder or gentler and choose to depart, any evidence to that effect would paint an entirely different picture.

The risk there, in a home invasion situation, lies most probably in forensic evidence, in any inconsistency in your story over time, or in other testimony that you didn't expect.

Best to let the wheels of justice grind on them rather than on you, when that happens.
 

RINGKINGS

New member
outside the box

thinking outside the box:
dont go near BG
throw the handcuffs to BG from a safe distance(while covering with weapon)
tell BG to cuff himself (preferably to some heavy unmovable object)
1. if he does it your a little safer
2. if he doesnt do it....so what... he is still covered
3. he handcuffed himself so you are less liable
 

BillCA

New member
I'm with those who say forget handcuffing anyone if you can avoid it. I have the training, I've done it alone and with several others helping. If they resist, it's a royal PITA. If they resist with determination, people usually get hurt (mostly them in the long run).

If you want to buy a set of handcuffs for whatever reason, buy the S&W's or Peerless brands. Just keep in mind they don't fit tiny wrists or really huge ones either.

Inside your home you're unlikely to face "false imprisonment" charges if your state authorizes citizens to stop crimes from being committed in their presence. Still, getting close enough to handcuff someone isn't a good idea.

If the intruder capitulates at gunpoint, the decision is yours whether he leaves or stays. That decision may be based on various factors, including how far away he is from a door. If he's halfway through the house, I'm not marching him to the door.

Get on the Floor - NOW!

1. NO
2. Doesn't move
3. Starts to talk in some strange language.
4. Starts to take a whiz on your couch.

People don't necessarily comply.

Next move - again.

¡No te muevas! ¡Manos arriba, muerto homre!¹

There is sufficient light in my home, even at night, that if he looks in my direction he will know that I'm armed, pointing a gun at him and partially behind a barricade. If he turns away and is not heading towards an exit, I can say stop in about 8 languages. I can certainly articulate a logical chain of thought that indicates an increased danger at that point. But I'll let my lawyer do the arguing.


¹ Roughly: Do not move. Hands up, dead man.
 

Tucker 1371

New member
We're missing something here...

Just so we're all clear, if a person you don't recognize is in your house at a strange hour and is armed you shoot first ask questions (or give orders) later, right?

I can understand yelling at an unarmed man (who I am 99.99% sure is unarmed) because nobody (or at least I hope nobody) wants to kill someone they don't have to. But if it isn't clear that he's unarmed or he is clearly armed I am pulling the trigger, then thinking about handcuffs (or probably not) and etc.

muerto homre!

hombre muerto, Spanish grammar is backwards from ours (i.e. Laguna Seca = Lake Dry but we would say Dry Lake) I'm sure he'll get the idea anyway though.
 

BuckHammer

New member
RINGKINGS said:
thinking outside the box:
dont go near BG
throw the handcuffs to BG from a safe distance(while covering with weapon)
tell BG to cuff himself (preferably to some heavy unmovable object)
1. if he does it your a little safer
2. if he doesnt do it....so what... he is still covered
3. he handcuffed himself so you are less liable
I like that idea.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top