Hand Loading For Disaster

wncchester

New member
WESHOOT: "I'm an idiot loader. But I'm an idiot first."

Yeah. My boss once said I was a "perfect idiot" but my buddy took up for me, he immediately told the boss "THAT ain't so, he's good but he ain't perfect!"

:D
 

parttime

New member
Astronomical!! Holly cow!

I have not been reloading for a long period of time like many of the readers of this forum. I have been shooting and been in the presence of reloaders for many, many years though. In that time I have been very fortunate not to have seen any of the disasters that the OP has discribed.

This activity of loading or reloading requires a lot of attention to detail, such as many hobbies due. If the reloader is lax or becomes distracted then the results can be disasterous.

If there is only one solution to the complex problem of inattentive and careless reloading practices, it would be trying to educate new reloaders to the possible dangers and steer them in the proper direction to gain the neccessary knowledge.

But astronomical, that is a non-discript number that leads someone to believe the practice of reloading is out of control. If the problems with reloading were that severe I am sure Ralf Nadar or someone from our over controlling government would have stepped in and put a stop to what we are doing.

Please come up with a realistic number of accidents that you are aware of. If those numbers are higher than in most other places, then maybe you should check the gene pool of your area instead of the amount of the powder charge in their cases!
 

zippy13

New member
Re: Reloading Idiots
At the other end of the spectrum, there are the over-educated. At my club there was has-been trap shooter called Doc, and he fancied himself one of the Boomer Boys (the guys who are always trying to get more range from their pot-shooting guns). Doc figured the myriad warnings about mixing powders didn't apply to him because he was a pharmacist and knew all about chemistry. While the other Boomer Boys were maximizing their BlueDot loads, Doc would show them a thing or two with his home blended powder. Yep, Doc no longer shoots at the club, after he blew up his last gun he departed off into the sunset -- hopefully little wiser.
 

floydster

New member
I have been reloading for some 56 years and I have yet to see a accident caused by reloading, that is for myself and all my reloading friends.
I guess we are just lucky:D
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
700cdl said:
...didn't properely adjust the resizing die and even though the bullet would fall in side of the case after charging they still tried to chamber the round resulting in the gun blowing up.


Sure seems to me like the most likely outcome of that adventure would be drastically LOW pressure, since in theory nothing would be plugging the mouth of the case so pressure could build. If the bullet were pushed forward on ignition, it would seem likely to self-align with the neck or bore and by the time it plugged the case, a large amount of powder would already be burned/escaped. Regardless, it's hard for me to imagine why this condition would result in high, rather than low, pressure.


700cdl said:
Most common reason though for injury and destroyed guns has been due to the person concentrating their efforts on economics by choosing the fastest buring powder available , so as to use the least amount possible.

You seem to be directly equating burn speed with bulk density. Is that your intent?
 

WESHOOT2

New member
witness

I personally have witnessed uncountable 'mistakes' of others during my multi-hundreds USPSA match experiences.
I have investigated (all too numerous) KB 'incidents by request.
I have physicaly visited reloader's locations to thwart any further 'mistakes'.

Reloading mistakes happen with alarming frequency. Still.....
 

parttime

New member
Thank you WESHOOT2 for your actions of helping to educate and taking steps to solve a problem instead of just pointing them out.

Creating an unsafe load can be just as dangerous as pointing a gun at someone. That behaivior is not tolerated at any range so why should unsafe reloading practices?
 

700cdl

New member
Hello again Peetza Killa,
The incidents that exploded 3 realy nice rifles was caused by the mouth not having been resized because the die was not adjusted properly. Anyway, these guys loaded up a charge of rifle powder, I don't know what powder or recall, but in effect with the bullet inside of the case one would think pressures to be low, but, this did in fact cause extreme pressues. So high that one rifle, a .270 Weatherby, brand new too, hand the bolt forced back shearing off the lugs, the other two rifles, one a Browning A-Bolt II with the Boss system, its chamber was so swollen that it was severely fractured. The last of those three rifles was a Rem. 700 and had the lugs pushed back enough that the bolt couldn't be opened and the chamber was swollen. The guy with the Browning had other problems going on too as I discovered when he invited me to his home to help him figure out why. I found he didn't have his scale zeroed because he didn't know it had to be, so his powder chages were not even in the ball park to data. The guy with the Weatherby had no idea what so ever what he was doing and was eye balling his powder charges. So its rather obvious there were a combination of contributing factors with these three incidents.
Ever seen a super Black Hawk explode due to an over charged case? I have. But the most commom of destroyed guns has been 45 ACPs, all from a powder over charge. A couple of 40 cals recently( past year or so). About 10 or so years ago I was shooting my 9mm next to a guy also shooting one. He handed me a bunch of his hand loads to shoot right after that his gun went kaboom. He got pretty bruised up and his glock was beyond salvagable. I gathered up my gear and went home, took the rounds apart to find one without a charge. My guess is he had one squib and fired one into the back of it.
So long as we are speaking of me being the most unlucky guy. I've been kidnapped 4 times, robbed 6 times, and had someone try to blow me up in my car twice. All but the car incidents was completely random. I'm that guy who is for some reason out of the statistics of average. Oh., I've also been the person to save 3 women from being raped and interupted/stopped 2 other kidnappings.
 

700cdl

New member
Parttime, I only pointed the incidents out because I was being doubted as to the possibility of odds impossible for so many to make critical mistakes that get them hurt and destroy their weapons. I wrote the post to help prevent as many as possible from making preventable mistakes. I make mistakes too, the only difference is that I have steps in place that won't let them slip by unnoticed. All of the resources and are so much more available now as compared to when I started hand loading, I only want to inspire those considering this hobby or new to it to take advantage of those resources.
 

maillemaker

New member
Geez you guys make me want to give up reloading. :)

I started right off with a progressive reloader (Lee Pro1000).

But I'm very mechanically inclined, and I was very careful at each step of the operation. I basically made each bullet individually, even though I was using the progressive loader. I did not even use a bin to catch the bullets, as I retrieved each one out of the machine as it came out, to inspect it.

My first 20 rounds fired just fine. I did a powder weight check on every 5-10 rounds.

I'm tempted to take my first batch (about 450 rounds) and weigh each one, and compare them all to my lightest round. Any round that weighs more than 3 grains above my lightest round I could consider "suspect" as over-charged.

I'm using 4.2 grains of Bullseye with a 230 grain LRN bullet.

Is it possible to double charge this combination?

Steve
 

4runnerman

New member
Is it possible to double charge this combination?


I have never seen a pistol load that can not be overcharged. Most pistol loads are not near full or some times not even half full. Check and recheck and then just before you seat bullet-Recheck again.

I load 45 ACP and use titgroup.Using titgroup you could triple charge a case.
some powders(Unique) im not sure if you could triple,but you could double charge.
I look when i dump powder, i look at all when im done with all loads,and then when i grab to seat bullet i look again
 

maillemaker

New member
I have never seen a pistol load that can not be overcharged. Most pistol loads are not near full or some times not even half full. Check and recheck and then just before you seat bullet-Recheck again.

How do you check, particularly in a progressive reloader?

I can look down in the shell and see powder, but unless I take it out of the case holder and dump its powder out into a scale (which I do every 5-10 rounds), you can't really know how much powder is in it, right?

Steve
 

Clay

New member
Using H110 for magnum loads, it's impossible to double charge a case. OVER charge, most definitely, but the case is 2/3 full before you even put in the bullet. This is the same with Varget and my 308. I have no experience with any other powders. I couldn't be more happy with H110 so far, it beats the cheap factory stuff and almost ties the expensive stuff!
 

4runnerman

New member
How do you check, particularly in a progressive reloader

That one sorry to say i can't answer as i would be guessing. I use a single stage and my own personnel preference would never want a progressive,But i see coyotehunter did have a answer for you. Hope all this helps

Play safe
 

Brian Pfleuger

Moderator Emeritus
There are several powders that make an accidental dangerous over-charge nearly impossible in some handgun rounds.

The following is not to be taken as load data. Don't be stupid.

AA#9 and 800x, in some rounds, would have to almost be compressed with a wooden dowel and a hammer in order to fit enough in the case to cause a catastrophic failure.
 

snuffy

New member
In response to those of you who cast some doubt as to how many incidents I've had first hand knowledge of that involved a blown up gun is largely due to the fact that I worked in the retail end of the industry.

I sold numerous complete hand loading set ups to beginners and always informed then to please come in or call me with questions or problems. Some would return with guns blown up and bruises asking me what went wrong.

Upon disassembling remaining rounds I often discovered a percentage that were either without charges or double charged and in fact some with as much as a triple charge. But of all the really bad incidents, most were related to the extreme over charged cases.

I recall at least 3 incidents in which the individual didn't properly adjust the resizing die and even though the bullet would fall in side of the case after charging they still tried to chamber the round resulting in the gun blowing up. All of those were with high powered rifles and over charged cases were a mix of rifle and handgun rounds.

Some destroyed guns were the cause of powder not properly weighed, using a powder scoop but not checking it against a scale first, wrong powder for the charge or cartridge being loaded, failing to zero the scale before weighing because they didn't know how or didn't know it was necessary to do so.

As would any claim of issues with this process being addressed with the retailer, I always requested the person bring in their remaining loads and fired cases for inspection. When I stated an astronomical occurrence of improperly charged cases being the culprit I was being honest. And to reiterate on that, it is definitely because of my involvement in the industry that surely exposed me at a level most wouldn't experience. I also taught hand loading classes which had a profound impact on the number of incidents I encountered regarding my claim above regarding powder charges the primary cause. That part of my experience and background often left me with some blaming me, for failing to explain the process in better detail, even though it was certain they were the ones who failed to take the process seriously enough to pay attention, and ask questions at any point in time during or after the conclusion of training classes.

I can honestly say that even though I learned hand loading from books such as the Speer manual and other very detailed instruction sources and without a mentor, I never had one single miss-fire, squib, or other failure in the over 2 1/2 decades of hand loading. I'm not a brain surgeon or have a particularly high I.Q., I simply read front to back multiple times until I fully understood what I was doing was being shone the right way. I've now reached a point in my teaching that has given my the ability to spot those who are not capable of ever grasping the concept or simply display a lack of respect for the process in that they show a disregard for certain steps as though they are excessive and unnecessary. I'm rather blunt with those individuals about the fact that such a lack of respect will find them into dangerous territory.

43 line paragraphs are real hard to read. I usually don't bother, but the subject needs to be aired.

HINT when you reach the end of a thought IE you're ready for the next paragraph, hit enter twice.
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The old adage goes like this, foolproof something, they'll just invent a better fool.

When I worked in a gunshop, I sold a lot of reloading set ups. One thing I made sure of, they left with at least ONE reloading manual. We would not sell a loader without one. Then we asked them to read the front section at least twice before even opening the box.

It is impossible to control what a free person does. So he could easily ignore the advice, thinking the old adage, DISTRUCTIONS, I don't need no damn instructions! You could still get sued, but it didn't happen during my time at the GS.

Here's something a group over on the NAHC website came up with. I was the originator of this, others added some stuff, and Mike Woolum edited it for spelling and grammar. RIP Mike

BASIC RELOADER RULES & REQUIREMENTS

1. Do you have the patience to do detailed work away from distractions, (TV, Children, guests)?
2. Do you have a secure area that can be dedicated strictly to a loading bench?
3. Do you thoroughly understand what goes on inside a cartridge when you pull the trigger?
4. Are you mechanically inclined? In other words can you understand and follow instructions exactly, to make needed adjustments to equipment? Do know how to use measurement tools such as calipers and micrometers?
5. Read the front sections of several reloading manuals. I suggest one manual, printed by a company that sells reloading equipment AND bullets. The other one should be by a company that sells only powder. Case in point Hornady then Hodgdon. After reading and understanding the “HOW TO” section in those manuals, find someone who already loads to show you how and talk you through a box of shells. Better yet find a NRA Metallic/Shotshell Reloading instructor and take a basic reloading class. See links below for locating an instructor.
6. Never be in a hurry. If you are pressed for time, this is when a mistake will be made.
7. Do not under any circumstances smoke, eat or drink, especially alcoholic beverages. The reasons are obvious, but I’ll state them anyway. Smokeless powder burns at a very high temperature; it makes a dandy accelerant to start a fire. Drinking causes loss of motor skills and judgment.
8. Wash hands thoroughly when you are through. You are dealing with lead in many forms when handling bullets and primers.
9. Walk before you run. Buy a single stage press to start out with. The progressives are neat and useful when doing large quantities of ammo. You will always have uses for the single stage loader for special loads later.
10. Stay with the basics at first. The tools for neck turning, flash hole uniforming, primer pocket uniforming and checking concentricity will be useful after you get some experience.
11. To start with, stay in the mid-range of the suggested loads for medium power levels. Save the maximum loads for when you have more experience.
12. Buy the best equipment you can afford. It will last a lifetime; the cheap stuff will wear out and need replacing.
13. Have ONLY the bullets, powder, primers and empties on the table that you are loading at that time. Put everything away as soon as you are done, in a separate place.
14. The only stupid question is one that doesn’t get asked. If you’re not sure, ask somebody. Use common sense, logic is a great tool for a Reloader.
15. Maintain a log of all loads developed with the test results. Label all boxes with the load data and date of the load.
16. Every Step is an inspection point.
17. The last thing you do before the bullet goes in " Look in every case to verify the powder charge".
18. Get a good pair of shooting/safety glasses and wear them whenever in the loading room.

Basic steps to reloading. This is a short edited version from the "NRA GUIDE TO RELOADING".

There are 17 steps of which most are for both rifle and pistol and one for pistol only. This is will mark with an * .
1. Inspect cases,
2. Clean Cases
3. Organize cases by batches
4. Select proper shell holder
5. Insert and set up sizing die
6. Lubricate cases
7. Resize and deprime cases
8. Measure case length
9. Trim cases
10 Deburr and Chamfering
11. Clean Primer Pocket
12. Expand Case mouth (*)
13. Prime Cases
14. Measure powder charge and charge cases
15. Check powder charge in case
16. Seat bullet in case
17. Identify the reloaded cartridges (Mark the box etc)
 

maillemaker

New member
Hornady powder cop die, etc. A couple manufacturers make poweder checking devices.

I did not know they made such things. I found one here:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=199393

Unfortunately, I don't know how I would use them in my Lee Pro1000 3-die progressive loader. There is no room for an extra die between the charging die and the seating die.

You would need at least 4 stations to use this, I would think.

Basically what I do is eyeball each case before I seat a bullet, verifying that there is powder in the case. I can't tell how much powder is in the case, of course, but at least I know it is not a squib.

I then dump every 5-10th case and measure it's powder charge, as a check.

Steve
 

snuffy

New member
Very well said snuffy,But you forgot clean flash hole :)

That's an optional operation, something I NEVER do. The flash hole is never blocked after the decapping pin has removed the primer. The primer pocket cleaning is also optional. Some, that tumble after sizing HAVE to worry about media getting left in the flash hole, then you'd better pay attention to it's presence.
 
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